Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Got a Bravo yesterday! Much different than the 201 I had before. There are long range fuel tanks in the wings giving 130 gallons. What I don’t understand is my useful load is only 888lbs. What am I missing here? Full fuel alone would be 780lbs leaving 108lbs. I would need to loose a hell of a lot of weight! Quote
ilovecornfields Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Sounds like you bought a Bravo. That’s certainly on the lower end of the useful loads, but part of the reason I decided not to buy a Bravo (don’t even think about looking at the UL of the 252 Encore). I looked at a Bravo once and the owner told me with full fuel the useful load was enough for himself and a toothbrush. Quote
kortopates Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Got a Bravo yesterday! Much different than the 201 I had before. There are long range fuel tanks in the wings giving 130 gallons. What I don’t understand is my useful load is only 888lbs. What am I missing here? Full fuel alone would be 780lbs leaving 108lbs. I would need to loose a hell of a lot of weight! What kind of equipment does it have? TKS? Or AC? Those kind of things will do it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
smccray Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 35 minutes ago, Knuckledragger00 said: What am I missing here? The aircraft is routeinly flown over gross. 2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said: Sounds like you bought a Bravo. That’s certainly on the lower end of the useful loads, <snip> I’m betting it’s a FIKI or at least a TKS equipped bravo. Useful load may include filling the TKS tanks. You may be able to gain some additional useful load by carrying less TKS fluid. The Bravo is a hell of a traveling airplane for one person, maybe two. Beyond that useful load is limited. 1 Quote
Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Posted October 25, 2018 Yes you guys are correct it has FIKI. Honestly couldn’t believe my eyes when I did the W & B! Quote
DVA Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Welcome to Bravo ownership! My empty weight is 2498.5, FiKI, Monroy’s and larger O2 bottle - same “problem” as everyone. The Bravo is a two seater at best, but wow it’s fast and fun. Here’s something you can look for. There is the possibility that you have Charlie weights installed from back in the day when a fully loaded panel weight a lot. I bet if your CG is nearly always aft, they’re probably still in at station 209.5 way the back. It can be up to 19lbs and is likely not needed. (It a help!) If you haven’t actually done a measured weight and balance in scales lately, it might be a good idea. I lost 25 lbs when I did that by making sure everything was legally accounted for and nothing was hiding as extra weight. I rarely fly with full fuel, because I can’t legally get into the plane alone, like you, and I can’t fly for more than 4 hours with my old bladder and sore ass anyway. So, here’s a little present for your new ride. Go by the universal fuel stick at Sporty’s and use this to get very precise. (I think I also wrote a blog post on this but I’m on my phone and can’t check)Mooney M20M Fuel StickUse only with Monroy STC. Marking Calc's Gals. USE THIS.25 21.1 21.5 22.8 23.75 24.5 241 26.2 261.25 28.85 281.50 29.50 30 1.75 31.20 312.00 33.00 332.25 34.50 342.50 36.20 362.75 37.80 383.00 39.50 403.25 41.20 413.50 42.90 433.75 44.50 444.00 45.75 454.25 47.00 474.50 48.25 484.75 49.50 495.00 50.75 505.25 52.00 525.50 53.25 535.75 54.50 546.00 55.00 556.25 56.00 566.50 57.00 576.75 58.00 587.00 59.00 59Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote
DVA Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 I see the formatting is bad in the last post. There are three columns in the data. Just FYI. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 KD, when discussing UL.... It is proper to mention the empty weight you have... For fun, note your MGTW... (3368?) Be aware that you may have a MGLW to go with that... (3200) My Long Body empty weight is 2317. with 100 gal standard tanks... that leaves me with about 451# for friends and family and stuff... You didn’t by chance think.... Wow, 130 gal. And four seats... this has got to be fun! Did you do the math on how far a Bravo can go with 130 gallons? The extra 30 gal isn’t always going to be useful. Fortunately, you will get a few days of people or fuel... most families can’t handle extensive long XCs without a stop... Long Body fun! Best regards, -a- Quote
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 KD, There are some interesting things to know about your fuel load. 1) The panel gauges are only accurate in flight... 2) The wing mounted gauges are only accurate on the ground... 3) The FF / Totalizer is the only precise fuel measurement that came with the plane... 4) Recent upgrades may include Ceis digital fuel gauges... Precision while you are flying... 5) Nothing beats the accuracy and price of DVA’s stick! Fun days are ahead, -a- 1 Quote
Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Posted October 25, 2018 Car, Having only added fuel once I was wondering how I will know when to stop at 100 gallons. fuel stick sounds like the solution. In my 201 I had indicators inside the the tank. Haven’t looked to see if there are any here. EW is 2480.10 CG 46.62 UL 887.50 Anyway, thanks for your great advice:) 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 CIES was showing the latest skills they have... An app that displays the fuel level in the plane. Always be aware fuel takes time to distribute and settle evenly. i am not sure if cies floats know when the plane is on the ground or flying... the ground attitude is what makes the difference... The Ceis guy is around here somewhere @fuellevel Best regards, -a- Quote
Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Posted October 25, 2018 I just checked CIES web site and didn’t see any mention of an app and hardware that would advise fuel levels. That actually sounds like a great idea! Did learn that CIES is about 2 miles away from where I live however! Quote
Awful_Charlie Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) I got mine weighed before I bought it, and yours does sure look a bit heavy - do you have AC as well? FWIW, mine is 2384 BEW, but the arm is a less convenient 43.27 despite having 12lbs (2 units) of charlies in the tail, so for me I'm more often limited by forward CofG limit. They weighed it with a nearly full load of TKS fluid too, so I had to calculate it back to get a 'proper' figure Don't forget you can remove the rear seats - for me this gets 35lbs back. For fuel, (I have the LRT too), just below the bottom of the standpipes ("Full" in the chart below) will be around 100 USG - I made the table up by running a tank dry and the filling it slowly and taking the pump readings at several points. I've done this on several different occasions for each tank and averaged them out - I suggest you do this yourself in due course to get the figures that suit your aircraft! (we buy in litres over here, hence the extra columns). The difference in unusable by POH and unusable in straight and level flight for me is near as dammit to 2USG - you'll have to decide on what you use as a reference Edited October 25, 2018 by Awful_Charlie Quote
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Cies had been working on Mooney approvals for a while... The updates included the best accuracy available in crummy conditions like turbulence... The App is a very recent development... may not be commercial yet... To display the fuel level data... It helps if you have a digital engine monitor like a JPI900 or so... Best regards, -a- Quote
Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Posted October 25, 2018 AC, No on AC. Not sure why I would be so heavy honestly. It does have a G 1000 but can’t imagine that would be heavier than steam gauges? Quote
carusoam Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Early/mid 90s Long bodies had a few heavy options that go in the back... - O2 system - Fiki systems - AC In place of these are a stack of Charlie weights... Your POH will have the details of what is back there and how much it weighs. Including how many CWs... Best regards, -a- Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 10 hours ago, Knuckledragger00 said: Got a Bravo yesterday! Much different than the 201 I had before. There are long range fuel tanks in the wings giving 130 gallons. What I don’t understand is my useful load is only 888lbs. What am I missing here? Full fuel alone would be 780lbs leaving 108lbs. I would need to loose a hell of a lot of weight! I have a 1993 M20M and have pulled out the old avionics and upgraded the panel. I have also pulled the entire vacuum system - regulator, lines, filters, both of the vacuum pumps (the engine driven and the clutch driven backup on the back of the engine). I upgraded to Whelen LEDs for all three strobes, so I lost some weight by pulling the troublesome power supplies for those. Your G1000 Bravo should never have had vacuum pumps though, so It would be interesting if you took a picture of your Weight & Balance in your POH and posted it. Please post pictures of your airplane as well!! I am back up to 1012 lbs of useful load. I still have the older heavy starter and when I swap out to a Skytec should be close to 1020 lbs of useful load. I have owned three M20M's over the years and have had Monroy Long Range tanks on all of them. You don't need to use them all of the time, but it makes the airplane extremely flexible in range. They also allow you to load up when you are in a place that sells "cheap" fuel. It's nice to have extra fuel for many options, getting around weather, etc. 2 Quote
Knuckledragger00 Posted October 25, 2018 Author Report Posted October 25, 2018 Lance, I have done as instructed:) See below: 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Beautiful airplane. Curious about the previous pages and what all added to that empty weight. 1 Quote
Danb Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 Lance good inquiry, I have a BravoGX without TkS but have LR tanks, my useful load is 1012, I’m sure the tks system isn’t 120 lbs. knuckles uw is suspect. Quote
MIm20c Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 I think sometimes the 55 lbs of tks fluid is added to the empty weight. Quote
DVA Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 I think sometimes the 55 lbs of tks fluid is added to the empty weight. Which would be 100% wrong if it was.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
MIm20c Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 I’ve seen it both ways, wasn’t sure if it was a FIKI vs non or a mistake. Quote
DVA Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 I’ve seen it both ways, wasn’t sure if it was a FIKI vs non or a mistake. I’m certainly not trying to argue with you @Mlm20c - just trying to help you loose weight - but if the fluid is indeed included in the empty weight calc, it is not confirming to the FAA rules on W&B and you should either re-weight correctly, or have an A&P do a correction if they can find fact of that in the paperwork. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 25, 2018 Report Posted October 25, 2018 On the Bravo the TKS System holds 6.3 gallons @ 9.2 lbs/gallon which figures out to 58 lbs. The TKS airframe additions and pumps and plumbing weigh 34 pounds, so full with fluid the system takes up 92 pounds up useful load for the Bravo. Also you have some other options on that airplane: ADF, DME, Skywatch, WX-500 Stormscope, which are nice options but add to the weight. Here are two unsolicited opinions: 1) If N18GX was my airplane the first thing I would do is call Paul Maxwell and see if they could upgrade it to WAAS. Garmin is not making the GIA63W waas com receivers anymore but Maxwell might be able to source them for the upgrade. To have a G1000 and not be able to do WAAS approaches would limit its usefulness as they decommission ILS approaches and keep adding more GPS LPV approaches. It would also limit its resale severely. 2) Then I would have a Garmin GTX-345R transponder installed to replace the GTX-33. This adds ADS-B out and makes you 2020 compliant and adds some ADS-B in benefits. The fact that your Bravo has the Garmin GFC700 autopilot makes it the only one in the world equipped that way, and makes it the Ultimate Bravo to own. This is the airplane Garmin used to certify the G1000 in 2004 and later the GFC700 in 2006. Sidenote: I see that when your TIO-540-AF1B has the STC for the Centri-Lube Camshaft. Please keep us updated on how your engine is doing. That looks like a worthwhile upgrade when an engine gets overhauled. Once you are able to get the WAAS upgrade I would take this over an Acclaim. 1 Quote
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