M20F Fuel Stick - I know I know

[Bob - S50]

On 9/26/2018 at 5:44 PM, MyNameIsNobody said:

Ya, I do.  It is accurate.  Simple and F.R.E.E.  Take your gadget and market it to someone that cares. #unnecessarywaste

No need to get nasty.

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, fuellevel said:

Actually - I like the reaction.    A fixed position (i.e. mounted in the tank) accurate reporting device should if designed correctly outperform

•  A methodology that involves human interface, that coordinates a predictable repeatable action in a nearly impossible still volume of fuel  with a porous and human marked stick.

The ability to project that accuracy on the ubiquitous smartphone that everyone caries os just a succinct way of illustrating this disparity 

The last cars to come equipped with a stick are Early 1950's Volkwagon Beetles and MC TD's  for a point of reference

I am not driving in the illustration and I hardly qualify as a teenager.

The fact that this former methodology (Stick)  has no impact on fuel starvation and exhaustion statistic in aviation.   An Actual Scientific Study was performed that indicated that this methodology for long distance flights is nearly universal or near 100% in the pilot population and slightly less so for a short distance flights.

If you look at the current Nall Report -  the Fuel Statistic remains stubborn while overall accidents in aviation are falling 

 

Funny - in speaking to people much older than me,  it was equally unsuccessful in Volkswagen Beetles and MG TDs

 

If I told you 10 years ago that you would take strangers into your house and  rent them a spare room or get into a car with a total stranger to be taken somewhere - your arguments to those concepts may have had equal vitriol - yet here we are with Airbnb, Uber and Lyft 

The world does change 

Amen!

I really like the idea of an actual, accurate, fuel gauge.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Own and use the hell out of my IPhone.  Uber is taxi of choice while traveling.  The fuel stick just works.  I visually inspect the fuel and sump tanks before every flight.  Even if Ap on phone was free I will continue to use the stick along with my fuel totalizer in the plane.  My method has never let me down.  I was ridiculed so I responded clearly telling how I felt.  If that is “nasty” to you I say wonderful.  You have led a sheltered and wonderful life.  Good for you.

[MyNameIsNobody]

here I go on my final strike.  Flying a 50+ year old plane that I have updated tremendously in the name of safety and function.  I take exception to your little bitch statement “The World Changes”.  No shit Sherlock.  I embrace technology when it makes sense.  Form follows function.  A recognized need at a value is worthwhile.  I see ZERO value in your product.  The stick works.  If you think that fuel exhaustion incidents are happening because old stuck in the “old days” asshats are “sticking their tanks” I say bullshit.  Let’s get together sometime and you can roll some more great stuff my way.  That would be awesome.  Or not.

[Andy95W]

37 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

  If you think that fuel exhaustion incidents are happening because old stuck in the “old days” asshats are “sticking their tanks” I say bullshit.  

It's the asshats who don't  stick their tanks that are the ones running out of fuel.  If you give a clown the most accurate fuel gauges in the world, they will still find a way to run out of gas, possibly by forgetting to switch tanks to the one that is very accurately showing 100% fuel.

I'm not knocking the Cies floats- just listening to reports here on MS shows astonishing results that I wish my 50+ year old Mooney had come from the factory with.  I just can't justify the price, like Timmy/Jimmy/Scott.  The only tangible benefit I can see, besides the exceptional accuracy, is if a fuel tank had a gushing leak that wouldn't be accounted for by a fuel totalizer.  In that situation, you change tanks and get on the ground to determine the cause.

And if I run out of gas, it's because I did something stupid, not because my fuel gauges weren't accurate enough.

[carusoam]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:44 PM, fuellevel said:

You still use a stick?

Need to tell us a bit more about the Cies App...

Its worthy of its own thread...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hephaestus]

On 9/26/2018 at 1:53 PM, Hephaestus said:

Give me a second to figure out why fusion isn't playing right and I'll post it to thingiverse - based on measurements above.

Print in PETG - decided to make it 300mm tall, so it fits on the more common 3d printers. 

* 3d printing is inaccurate so is my eyeball tape measure and parralax error not accounted for. So if you crash due to using it your problem not mine, suggest you verify accuracy and Mark correctly.

Ok test print done, probably unnecessarily huge, 2"x 11" maybe I'll do a much smaller version(?)

Just used a sharpie to make the letters pop. Waiting on thingiverse to let me upload, 24hr hold in case I'm a spammer apparently...

[gsxrpilot]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:44 PM, fuellevel said:

You still use a stick?

Ok... what is this app and why don't I have it on my phone???

[skydvrboy]

11 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

If you think that fuel exhaustion incidents are happening because old stuck in the “old days” asshats are “sticking their tanks” I say bullshit.

I definitely see value in the CiES fuel measuring system.  Anytime your fuel consumption is different in-flight than what you originally planned, you have no idea how much fuel you have with the old stick method.  Our local priest, with over 50 years of safe flying experience, just ran out of gas and landed in a bean field last Thursday at the end of a long cross country.  He sticked his tanks and calculated that he had 45 minutes reserve in an Archer.  When flying, he flew lower than planned and was burning fuel faster than he thought.  Had he had accurate gauges in-flight, he may not have landed 1/2 mile short of the airport.

What I don't see any value in is a $10 plastic tube instead of a free wooden stick.  Both give you the exact same information with the same accuracy.  Likely more accuracy with the wooden stick if you calibrate it yourself vs buying a pre-calibrated plastic tube or using someone else's measurements.

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I definitely see value in the CiES fuel measuring system.  Anytime your fuel consumption is different in-flight than what you originally planned, you have no idea how much fuel you have with the old stick method.  Our local priest, with over 50 years of safe flying experience, just ran out of gas and landed in a bean field last Thursday at the end of a long cross country.  He sticked his tanks and calculated that he had 45 minutes reserve in an Archer.  When flying, he flew lower than planned and was burning fuel faster than he thought.  Had he had accurate gauges in-flight, he may not have landed 1/2 mile short of the airport.

I'm a big proponent of the CiES digital senders. I have them in my 252 and can't imagine life without them.

Having said that, I think the argument is that a stick and a fuel flow meter or totalizer is enough to know (short of a leak in your tank) how much fuel you have. Your priest, with a totalizer, would have seen that he was burning more fuel than planned and wouldn't have run out.  I flew about 400 hours in an M20C with just a totalizer and stock gauges/senders (worthless) and did just fine. I knew within .5 gal how much gas I had at any given time. I didn't really know which tank it was in. But that was mitigated by running one of them dry and then knowing that ALL the fuel was in the other one. 

But with the totalizer/stick option, I had to be very conscientious about documenting exactly how much was added at a fuel stop, how much fuel I was starting with, and how many gallons had been used when switching tanks. I kept a spreadsheet in the cockpit and logged all fuel and tank changes.  That worked fine in my M20C where full tanks equaled 52 gallons every single time.  In my 252 it's a different story. Full tanks can be +/- as much as 10 gallons (5 gal/side). It all depends on how long you want to stand there dribbling the last few gallons into the tank. Since I really can't know with any accuracy (even with a stick) how much fuel is in the tank, having accurate senders is critical. 

Without my CiES senders, I'd be tankering 20 gal of fuel at all times. And that's just not an efficient use of my UL. CiES senders with my EDM-900 allows me to convert the fuel in my tanks to range, and to do it safely.

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Own and use the hell out of my IPhone.  Uber is taxi of choice while traveling.  The fuel stick just works.  I visually inspect the fuel and sump tanks before every flight.  Even if Ap on phone was free I will continue to use the stick along with my fuel totalizer in the plane.  My method has never let me down.  I was ridiculed so I responded clearly telling how I felt.  If that is “nasty” to you I say wonderful.  You have led a sheltered and wonderful life.  Good for you.

You were fine up until the last sentence when you essentially told him to F off.

I too stick my tanks. I too have a totalizer. But neither will tell me how much fuel I have if I vent fuel or develop a leak prior to the flow transducer. So accurate gauges are not worthless. They may be expensive or fall further down the priority list of upgrades, but they are quite useful. I love ours.

[MyNameIsNobody]

3 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

You were fine up until the last sentence when you essentially told him to F off.

I too stick my tanks. I too have a totalizer. But neither will tell me how much fuel I have if I vent fuel or develop a leak prior to the flow transducer. So accurate gauges are not worthless. They may be expensive or fall further down the priority list of upgrades, but they are quite useful. I love ours.

Actually being sincere in the last sentence.  My OEM senders  and gauges still provide some accuracy.  The totalizer is set and fuel burn used documented and timed.  My gauges read most accurate at empty.  Totalizer AND tank along with visual inspection and stick work for me.  How much worry do I have about venting/leaks resulting in an off field landing?  Zero/Zip/Zilch/Nada...R U Serious with that?  Right up there with the phantom stick splinter in goofy stuff to be concerned about...

[MyNameIsNobody]

I put a dog to sleep today so patience over las few days?  Not so much...

[Stephen]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:44 PM, fuellevel said:

You still use a stick?

There's an app for that?

[Stephen]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

CiES senders with my EDM-900 allows me to convert the fuel in my tanks to range, and to do it safely.

yup

[redcatcher27]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:06 PM, sdflysurf said:

Ok I know it has been discussed, but I can't find exactly what I am looking for - Mine is the M20F Model with 32GAL tanks on each side (no bladder).

Anyone have a measurement stick they could show me next to a measuring tape so I can make my own?

And yes, when the money is there I will be going the Cies route.  Probably in 2019.

Hey there sdflysurf,

I see you got a lot of responses, but if you ever get a 100% solution to the original question,  "a measurement stick next to a measuring tape of a M20F with 32 gal tanks" ... I would love to have it - Thanks in advance for sharing!

[fuellevel]

The app and aircraft interface are in final development,   Mooney’s and Malibu’s have been shown it first.   Some of you will be offered the app and the aircraft interface to beta test and provide feedback.   There has to be benefits to being early adopters.

 

 

[Cyril Gibb]

2 hours ago, fuellevel said:

The app and aircraft interface are in final development,   Mooney’s and Malibu’s have been shown it first.   Some of you will be offered the app and the aircraft interface to beta test and provide feedback.   There has to be benefits to being early adopters.

I’m missing the point I think.  This app would tell me what the Cies sensors are reading.  (Would love the accuracy, but can’t justify the cost) Is this using some technology that would provide that information remotely?

What is a practical example or advantage of this app?

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, fuellevel said:

The app and aircraft interface are in final development,   Mooney’s and Malibu’s have been shown it first.   Some of you will be offered the app and the aircraft interface to beta test and provide feedback.   There has to be benefits to being early adopters.

Put me in Coach... 

[Marauder]

Put me in Coach... 

Your too resistive, he needs a guy who has dialed up the frequency.

[fuellevel]

6 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I’m missing the point I think.  This app would tell me what the Cies sensors are reading.  (Would love the accuracy, but can’t justify the cost) Is this using some technology that would provide that information remotely?

What is a practical example or advantage of this app?

Cyril.   I trust what we are doing in supplying accurate fuel level from a fixed location,  is a very significant improvement on sticking a tank .   Yes  this is heresy to some,  as this has been the time honored method that has kept some but not all safe.  Aviation is like a religion - you trust what you were told at an early age and believe it throughout your life.

 It is a basic fact that what we can do relative to fuel level is better than you can do with a procedure with a stick.   I will put up $1,000 for someone who believes they can be more accurate with a stick full stop.  Name the place and location.

We have 5,000 aircraft with our system, so I have users who back up my voracity.     What is better is that our system travels with you when you fly,  You can get a better than a stick reading in flight. - Level flight no turbulence.    

Initiating your flight with a basic stick level understanding of starting fuel level - has proven to be an issue.   

[Stephen]

9 hours ago, fuellevel said:

The app and aircraft interface are in final development,   Mooney’s and Malibu’s have been shown it first.   Some of you will be offered the app and the aircraft interface to beta test and provide feedback.   There has to be benefits to being early adopters.

 

 

@fuellevel I was one of the first early CIES adopters  and have a software dev company for additional context; would be happy to beta test for you. I think @Antares is an AppDev type as well... can't remember if he got CIES though. 

[Shiny moose]

I have used tank timer app and it is very accurate if set up properly and turned on, I was within a gallon after 3.5 hours flying  Aerologic has a 2 tank fuel guage with an option using our legacy floats. Anyone have experience to share

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Shiny moose said:

I have used tank timer app and it is very accurate if set up properly and turned on, I was within a gallon after 3.5 hours flying  Aerologic has a 2 tank fuel guage with an option using our legacy floats. Anyone have experience to share

We started with the Aerospace Logic FL202 with the legacy floats.  Worked well for awhile but became so unreliable that we decided to get the Cies floats.  They are deadly accurate.  The only time we've had problems is when one of our ground wires was not securely attached.  Same gauge, different floats.

[Cyril Gibb]

11 hours ago, fuellevel said:

Cyril.   I trust what we are doing in supplying accurate fuel level from a fixed location,  is a very significant improvement on sticking a tank .   

I believe you’re missing my point.  Accurate fuel gauges are obviously an advantage.  I’d install your senders in a New York minute if it came to the top of my upgrade/maintenance funding priorities.

My question is about the added value of an app that tells what is also indicated on the panel gauges.  It seems to be redundant.