m20f Elevator counter weights

[mcrouch]

Hi folks. Looking for some advice and information from the a&p's and IA's out there, as well as any one else that may have experience with this item or personal knowledge about the repair. 

Each elevator on our mooneys (this question happens to involve a 67 M20F) has on the outboard side a counterweight shaped like a wide piece of pie, about 2.5 or 3.0 inches wide and about 3/4ths inch tall where it attaches to the elevator. Visually it appears to be pressed on to a cylinder shaped rod but I have no idea how it is actually mounted and secured. I believe (but do not know) that these are made mostly of lead with perhaps an alloy or two mixed in. Mine have developed a tiny horizontal crack about 1.5 inches long along the top edge of the weight that runs from the outboard side towards the fuselage.

A couple of questions about that picture. (1) What would be the involved in removing and replacing those weights; (2) would any skins have to be disturbed to do so; (3) would the elevators have to be re-balanced after replacement presuming the replacement weights are the specific part number assigned to that part on that particular model a/craft;  (4) what's your best guess on time to accomplish the removal and replacement for a reasonably competent a&p; and (5) would you consider the cracks to be an "airworthy" item that would ground the plane until repair. I won't ask about labor cost as that varies widely in different parts of the country. But if you would care to chime in on that topic that would be okay. 

Any knowledge or information you could share on what is to me this most perplexing subject would be most appreciated......

Mark Crouch [N9522M]

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, mcrouch said:

A couple of questions about that picture. (1) What would be the involved in removing and replacing those weights; (2) would any skins have to be disturbed to do so; (3) would the elevators have to be re-balanced after replacement presuming the replacement weights are the specific part number assigned to that part on that particular model a/craft;  (4) what's your best guess on time to accomplish the removal and replacement for a reasonably competent a&p; and (5) would you consider the cracks to be an "airworthy" item that would ground the plane until repair. I won't ask about labor cost as that varies widely in different parts of the country. But if you would care to chime in on that topic that would be okay. 

Any knowledge or information you could share on what is to me this most perplexing subject would be most appreciated......

Mark Crouch [N9522M]

1. drill iron rivets, replace counterweight, and re-set new iron rivets.

2. no

3. yes. always.

4.  this may be beyond the scope of an A&P shop.  they drive aluminum rivets all day but iron rivets are placed red hot and driven in that state.  I'd guess 1.5 hours per elevator, 2 hours for a pair. this is a guess.

5. no photos but cracks in anything deem serious review,  and unless a positive "airworthy" determination can be made, dont fly it.

this advice is given freely and worth the price paid. use to build your knowledge base and to make more informed decisions, not airworthiness decisions.

 

[MikeOH]

9 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

1. drill iron rivets, replace counterweight, and re-set new iron rivets.

2. no

3. yes. always.

4.  this may be beyond the scope of an A&P shop.  they drive aluminum rivets all day but iron rivets are placed red hot and driven in that state.  I'd guess 1.5 hours per elevator, 2 hours for a pair. this is a guess.

5. no photos but cracks in anything deem serious review,  and unless a positive "airworthy" determination can be made, dont fly it.

this advice is given freely and worth the price paid. use to build your knowledge base and to make more informed decisions, not airworthiness decisions.

 

I am NOT an AP/IA, but agree with the above...EXCEPT, there is a replacement weight (430053-501) which is attached with SCREWS (NAS623-3-1) rather than the original part (430016-501) which has the iron rivets (430026-999).  This is from the "J" parts manual, but the original weigh P/N: 430016-501) is the same on the "F".  Basically, it looks like you replace the three 'thru' iron rivets with SIX screws (3 from the top, and 3 from the bottom) into the  "SPARES REPLACEMENT" part.

Here is the footnote from the parts manual:

1. 430053-501 IS SPARES REPLACEMENT FOR 430016-501 WITH NAS623-3-1 SCREWS (6 EACH).

[jetdriven]

Thats great info. Should be easy to do for a shop then. Power of the internet at work..

Edited August 7, 2018 by jetdriven

[Guest tommy123]

If there’s ever a question about materials not called out in the IPC a call to Mooney engineering would be a better place to ask rather than a forum. I’ve called them in the past when replacing spar huck bolts on a E that someone did a real poor job of drilling out. They were very helpful and happy to help.

[mcrouch]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:50 AM, MikeOH said:

I am NOT an AP/IA, but agree with the above...EXCEPT, there is a replacement weight (430053-501) which is attached with SCREWS (NAS623-3-1) rather than the original part (430016-501) which has the iron rivets (430026-999).  This is from the "J" parts manual, but the original weigh P/N: 430016-501) is the same on the "F".  Basically, it looks like you replace the three 'thru' iron rivets with SIX screws (3 from the top, and 3 from the bottom) into the  "SPARES REPLACEMENT" part.

Here is the footnote from the parts manual:

1. 430053-501 IS SPARES REPLACEMENT FOR 430016-501 WITH NAS623-3-1 SCREWS (6 EACH).

That is most helpful. Thanks...... Well, the power of the internet has let me down. The only phone number I can find rings at the sales manager's desk and that phone goes to voice mail. I would have thought Mooney would at least had a receptionist answering phone but I guess not. If anyone has a number for Mooney engineering, I would appreciate someone sending it by private message.

thanks 

Edited August 14, 2018 by mcrouch

[mcrouch]

On 8/7/2018 at 12:58 AM, tommy123 said:

If there’s ever a question about materials not called out in the IPC a call to Mooney engineering would be a better place to ask rather than a forum. I’ve called them in the past when replacing spar huck bolts on a E that someone did a real poor job of drilling out. They were very helpful and happy to help.

I'll see if I can find a phone number for them and give them a call. At the moment I'm wondering whether the replacement using the method MikeOH suggested would require some form of a 337 or an IA signoff. Maybe Mooney engineering would have some thoughts on that as well.

Insofar as I know, replacement of those weights has never come on on this forum so I posted for the education of us all as eventually everybody with an older model Mooney will face the problem of replacing those particular parts. Although I have an MSC near me I would feel much more comfortable getting the opinion of DMax or Kelly and was hoping they would chime in with their thoughts. They didn't (that I know of) and that's okay.

I most appreciate all the input from you gals and fellas and will reach out the Mooney engineering as soon as I can locate a phone number.

 

[KSMooniac]

I don't think you should (or will be able to) directly contact Mooney engineering if I had to guess. They really want all service type issues to go thru the MSC network first, and for good reason. I'd call DMax first and if he doesn't have the answer at instant recall, he'll get it in short order.

I don't think Mooney has any service/support engineer that talks to owners directly like Bill Wheat any longer.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I don't think you should (or will be able to) directly contact Mooney engineering if I had to guess. They really want all service type issues to go thru the MSC network first, and for good reason. I'd call DMax first and if he doesn't have the answer at instant recall, he'll get it in short order.

I don't think Mooney has any service/support engineer that talks to owners directly like Bill Wheat any longer.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

Based on my recent experience calling Mooney, you are SPOT on!  They directed me to call a Mooney Service Center; they were NOT interested in dealing directly with me as an owner.  Disappointing, but whatcha gonna do?

[Hank]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Based on my recent experience calling Mooney, you are SPOT on!  They directed me to call a Mooney Service Center; they were NOT interested in dealing directly with me as an owner.  Disappointing, but whatcha gonna do?

Well, you can't exactly call the GM or Ford factory when you have car trouble either, but no one seems to complain about that . . . . 

[MikeOH]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

Well, you can't exactly call the GM or Ford factory when you have car trouble either, but no one seems to complain about that . . . . 

Well, when Mooney starts building planes at the rate GM or Ford does, you let me know...meanwhile, I believe in a shrinking marketplace like GA, selling high-end niche products, it behooves the manufacturer to be directly responsive.

That's the attitude the "old" Mooney factory exhibited; e.g. Bill Wheat.

Had I the coin to spring for a new $750K Mooney, or whatever the price is, it would now give me pause that I'd be shuffled off to a MSC if I had issues...not a warm feeling.  Of course, maybe they just don't want us ankle biters distracting them from selling new planes...

[Guest tommy123]

I got hold of a engineer at Mooney like I said, but I also identified myself as a A&P, IA and they wanted my certificate number. That may be the difference. I wouldn’t be surprised that they won’t give engineering advice to a unqualified person, the liability issues are daunting. I doubt John Hopkins would do a consult with a layman either.

Edited August 19, 2018 by tommy123