GFC 500 and IFD 440/540

[MICKEY]

Devils Advocate here.. Anyone know if you have a Garmin G5 and IFD 440/540 if the Navigator will work with the GFC500?

 

 

[NJMac]

Wanting to know the same thing

Devils Advocate here.. Anyone know if you have a Garmin G5 and IFD 440/540 if the Navigator will work with the GFC500?
 
 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[bradp]

Will it work - yes.  The outputs to the autopilot are the same as for a 430/530.

Is it covered by the STC - probably not.  Check with Steve or Trek - they check the beechtalk avionics forum frequently.

[LANCECASPER]

People have done it, if you check it over at forums.avidyne.com.

[Mooney in Oz]

STC aside, will the GFC500 work with an Aspen Pro 1000 and IFD?

[mike_elliott]

20 minutes ago, Mooney in Oz said:

STC aside, will the GFC500 work with an Aspen Pro 1000 and IFD?

I have no idea, but I bet great pains were taken to make sure it doesn't. This would not be in Garmins' interest.

[Mooney in Oz]

7 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I have no idea, but I bet great pains were taken to make sure it doesn't. This would not be in Garmins' interest.

Just as I thought.

[Cruiser]

From past experience Garmin's position was/is that the OEM connecting to Garmin equipment is responsible for the STC and compatibility. i.e. IF you are connecting (name widget here) to a Garmin product you get the approval from (name) not Garmin.

Now whether Garmin is providing the necessary technical specs to do that is unknown to me.

[Marauder]

From past experience Garmin's position was/is that the OEM connecting to Garmin equipment is responsible for the STC and compatibility. i.e. IF you are connecting (name widget here) to a Garmin product you get the approval from (name) not Garmin.
Now whether Garmin is providing the necessary technical specs to do that is unknown to me.

Garmin’s approach to providing the technical specifications to an OEM appears to be based on their opportunity. They opened up the GTX-345 to Aspen because they knew they had competition that was going to bite into their GTX sales. Stuff that they want to keep proprietary, they keep proprietary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[M016576]

Garmin:  Besides being overpriced, they are certainly shrewd.

they certainly take the “being in business isn’t about making friends” adage to heart.

Edited August 4, 2018 by M016576

[StevenL757]

Easy solution - don’t buy their product.  Price out a DFC-90 autopilot or a Genesys 3100 and connect either of them to your Aspen PFD and Avidyne navigators.  

[PTK]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:35 PM, MICKEY said:

Devils Advocate here.. Anyone know if you have a Garmin G5 and IFD 440/540 if the Navigator will work with the GFC500?

You have other autopilot options besides Garmin products. Is there a particular reason why you need to buy the GFC500?

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, PTK said:

You have other autopilot options besides Garmin products. Is there a particular reason why you need to buy the GFC500?

Ok, who is this and what have you done with Peter?

[NJMac]

The GFC500 features seem to be comparable to say the 3100 but the new install sticker price appears to be quite a bit less.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

The GFC500 features seem to be comparable to say the 3100 but the new install sticker price appears to be quite a bit less.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I think you need to look at the specs of these autopilots. The STEC 3100 Is supposed to be similar to performance to the GFC 600. If this is true, the price points are similar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[MICKEY]

4 hours ago, NJMac said:

The GFC500 features seem to be comparable to say the 3100 but the new install sticker price appears to be quite a bit less.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Yes there are other options.  Agreed it is a good argument that the STEC 3100 is of equal or better performance than the GFC500 and possibly on par with the GFC 600. 

HOWEVER,  it does not yet have the proven system integration and redundancy of GFC 500.  And neither are yet certified for the M20 series.   

Further in my humble opinion, most Mooney owners only want/need the capability/function of the GFC 500.  The STEC 3100 is equitable or has more capability than what Mooney owners want/need.  So the option is to out purchase their needs with a reasonable price by upgrading to the STEC 3100 with older Servos, OR purchase what they need/want with the GFC 500 new servos at a marginally lower price point but with proven systems integration. 

As of right now, I have two thoughts. 

1. First to market in this arena will gain the Mooney market, and "Hose" the competition.  And will ultimately prevail. 

2.  Best proof of systems integration with the competitor is a close second in driving the margin of win over the competition.  (ie. if STEC shows that a Dual G5 system will integrate seamlessly with an STEC 3100 lateral/vertical/VNAV. With either an IFD 440 or GTN 650 navigator). 

So there are options.  And honestly I am not sure which one I am going with for Autopilot.  But if the STEC 3100 shows it can fully function in a Dual G5 world, I'd have a tough time saying no STEC. 

 

FWIW - Just a medical guy.

Edited August 5, 2018 by MICKEY

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I think you need to look at the specs of these autopilots. The STEC 3100 Is supposed to be similar to performance to the GFC 600. If this is true, the price points are similar  

 

I’ve never been in a stec controlled plane that can come close to a 20 year old BK 225 system.  I know @LANCECASPER said the 1500 series system is pretty good but the Garmin 700 system is the benchmark standard IMO.  The 600 system will be used on a caravan with floats and TBM aircraft that have massively different power control ability. 

I talked with the engineer and test pilot at Garmin for almost an hour last week. They push the envelope when testing these units. 4K+ dives with a complex entry, gear, flaps, etc and they said the units (both perform the same) lock on like the plane is on rails. If you have the proper navigator everything is seamless during go around, no extra button pushes to sequence the gps unit. 

In order for an AP system to give premium control over the aircraft the servos are REALLY working hard (IMO this is why the 225 eats servos).  I’m not convinced that the stec servos, new or old, will have any longer life / greater performance than the 500 servos. 

[Marauder]

I’ve never been in a stec controlled plane that can come close to a 20 year old BK 225 system.  I know [mention=8122]LANCECASPER[/mention] said the 1500 series system is pretty good but the Garmin 700 system is the benchmark standard IMO.  The 600 system will be used on a caravan with floats and TBM aircraft that have massively different power control ability.  I talked with the engineer and test pilot at Garmin for almost an hour last week. They push the envelope when testing these units. 4K+ dives with a complex entry, gear, flaps, etc and they said the units (both perform the same) lock on like the plane is on rails. If you have the proper navigator everything is seamless during go around, no extra button pushes to sequence the gps unit. 

In order for an AP system to give premium control over the aircraft the servos are REALLY working hard (IMO this is why the 225 eats servos).  I’m not convinced that the stec servos, new or old, will have any longer life / greater performance than the 500 servos. 

 

 

If you are talking about the low end STECs 20 - 40 series, I would agree with you. The 55 & 55X were better but the 60 and 65 series with external computers have decent performance for analog autopilots. I have never had an issue with the 60-2 capturing or flying a decent approach in the 20 years I’ve flown with it. With GPSS it got even better. And it certainly never has tried to kill me.

 

STEC is no stranger to high end autopilots. The 5000 series is a turbine level autopilot and they already had the digital 2100.

 

I do have concerns over the servos. They are providing a multi year used servo warranty with a 3100 upgrade. So, Genesys doesn’t appear to be concerned. These 3100 autopilots are already out there and I have been talking with owners who are flying them, many who did the conversion. From what I am hearing there have been no surprises and no premature failures of the servos. Time will tell.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Mooney in Oz]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

These 3100 autopilots are already out there and I have been talking with owners who are flying them, many who did the conversion. From what I am hearing there have been no surprises and no premature failures of the servos. Time will tell.

Do you know if these owners find the 3100 to be better in stability turbulence wise, during ILS approaches, general performance and overall happy they did the upgrade?

[PTK]

9 hours ago, MICKEY said:

Yes there are other options...

HOWEVER,  it does not yet have the proven system integration and redundancy of GFC 500.  And neither are yet certified for the M20 series.   

So you want proven system integration and redundancy. I see. Well, that does narrow your options. (Hint: you better stick with Garmin!)

 

[Marauder]

Do you know if these owners find the 3100 to be better in stability turbulence wise, during ILS approaches, general performance and overall happy they did the upgrade?

The feedback I have been getting is that the STEC 3100 is more stable than any of the roll based STECs and from a Beech guy who had a KFC 225, it is more stable than it was. He also commented that the button pushing for an LPV is less on the 3100 than the King.

You always need to take what someone says about their new avionics upgrade with a big grain of salt. Few will admit that they spent a lot of money on junk. But from what I can tell, the 3100 is living up to expectations.

What some are waiting for is the Aspen integration. Like with the STEC 55X, you will be able to do the altitude preselects and vertical speed on the Aspens and hopefully since the 3100 has IAS climbs, select it for indicated airspeed climbs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Marauder]

Should also add, that the 3100 doesn’t require the GAD or EA-100 devices for the respective Garmin or Aspen glass that was required with the analog autopilots.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Mooney in Oz]

52 minutes ago, Marauder said:

a Beech guy who had a KFC 225, it is more stable than it was

That is quite an accolade.  I've flown an Ovation with a 225 and despite its buttonology, I thought it was a brilliant autopilot. 

[mike_elliott]

The servos have been a weak link in the STEC 20, 30 40's requiring frequent "cleaning" of the armatures to keep roll and pitch oscillations from occurring. Barry, will the 3100 magically fix this known issue? (I have a harness I made up to do this cleaning, simply running the servo motor in ea direction for a couple of minutes every 6 months or so)

[Barry LeBlanc]

On 8/5/2018 at 7:23 AM, mike_elliott said:

The servos have been a weak link in the STEC 20, 30 40's requiring frequent "cleaning" of the armatures to keep roll and pitch oscillations from occurring. Barry, will the 3100 magically fix this known issue? (I have a harness I made up to do this cleaning, simply running the servo motor in ea direction for a couple of minutes every 6 months or so)

Hi Mike,  You can put away that harness of yours when you upgrade to a 3100AP. The 3100 AP runs the servos for 5 seconds in each direction once powered up. This will clean the servos motors. We have over 140 thousand of these units in the field today. I welcome you to tour the factory when you are in the Mineral Wells area and see our repair section. We have 1 person working on servos. From Polar to Polar these servos have a proven history. 

The 3100 uses a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal to drive the servo motors rather than a ramped voltage signal used with previous S-TEC autopilot systems.  This allows the servo always receive maximum voltage and avoids high startup voltage problems.  The speed is controlled more accurately by the frequency of the PWM signal.  With over 140,000 servos in the field this allows customers to upgrade existing S-TEC autopilot systems without swapping out expensive servo motors