Instrument Rating during the Summer

[xavierde]

Good afternoon,

I just passed my IR knowledge test and I’m able to take 3 weeks off over the Summer so I am thinking about going through some sort of intensive IR training to get the rating done. I would prefer to fly at times when the weather is worst to get as much real IMC experience as I can but I don’t think I’ll often have the opportunity to take 3 weeks off from both job and family. Would you have any recommendations? I’m flexible and happy to be anywhere in the US as long as the training is good and the costs reasonable.

Thank you !

[MooneyBob]

Your instructor will not be happy with he idea to flight in worst weather possible and get as much IMC as possible. 

[carusoam]

Congrats on getting the theory part done...

Some schools focus on squeezing the most training in the shortest period of time...

Some organizations will come to you full time...

I went the ten day route and spread it over two weeks... using American Flyers...

Lots of simulation time before actual flight.  I saw a good amount of IMC... winter in NJ.  Plenty of night flying with that...

It would be great to use your own plane...

I was between planes at the time...

http://www.americanflyersmorristown.net/

They used to have a great discussion... you know what you want.  They have a sim... try it for a bit and see if it meets your needs... they have a few locations around the US...

There are a lot of good methods, personalized to meet you needs...

I liked AF, because it was more like a business catering to professional people.  Less like the PPL where CFIs are barely scraping by college student style...

X, remind us how much Mooney time you have.   It might help with the suggestions people give...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

Around here this is the worst time of the year to do it. You have to do it between 5:00 AM and 9:00 AM or it is just miserable.

[Bryan]

It sux, (hot), but I got my IR this time last year with my check-ride rescheduled to do major thunderstorm activity around the first of July here locally - AR.  Bumpy, hot, but good practice hand flying all the practice approaches.

[Vance Harral]

Couple of thoughts, worth what you're paying for them.

First, an instrument rating isn't some magic panacea that allows you to fly a light piston single in thunderstorm or icing conditions.  So spending 3 weeks in an area of the country with the "worst" weather is most likely to generate a lot of on-the-ground discussion about no-go decisions.  That's good experience, of course, but does nothing for teaching you the motor skills and in-flight ADM critical to instrument flying.  If you're going to hunt IMC during your training, you want to look for benign stratus-y conditions.  Plan accordingly.  Something coastal perhaps, or maybe light early morning rainshowers in the south.  Not hot summer afternoons in tornado alley.

Second, there's such a thing as too much, too soon.  While there is always the occasional ace-of-the-base - and you might be that person - most beginning instrument students are completely overwhelmed in the first few hours by simple tasks.  Just making a frequent series of heading and altitude changes might be a non-trivial struggle.  Or the first time you're given a hold with no moving map to help.  Doing these things VFR under the hood gives the instructor a lot of leeway to work on basic skills.  Doing them in IMC has good value, of course, but also requires the instructor to file a flight plan, work within ATC's constraints, etc.  It's not always a great trade-off.

Finally, I have no problem with the 3-week intensive course plan.  But just remember that you tend to lose skills at about the same rate you learn them.  I've known a few folks who got their instrument rating through intensive courses, and others who went the long slog route.  The former seem more inclined to lapse all the way back to VFR-only flying.  So if you have high confidence you'll fly a lot of IFR (not necessarily IMC) immediately after training, the intensive route is a good one.  If not, you may actually benefit from stringing out the training over time.

[toto]

2 hours ago, xavierde said:

Good afternoon,

I just passed my IR knowledge test and I’m able to take 3 weeks off over the Summer so I am thinking about going through some sort of intensive IR training to get the rating done. I would prefer to fly at times when the weather is worst to get as much real IMC experience as I can but I don’t think I’ll often have the opportunity to take 3 weeks off from both job and family. Would you have any recommendations? I’m flexible and happy to be anywhere in the US as long as the training is good and the costs reasonable.

Thank you !

I wouldn't recommend this approach.  You'll have a lot of work to do learning how to fly the procedures, and that can be demanding even in simulated instrument conditions.  Adding real weather into the mix will just slow down your learning.

Get the IR ticket, then (very) slowly start tackling real weather.  Set your personal minimums very conservatively at first.  Try flying for extended periods in IMC, but with lots of "outs" - think 3000' ceilings and 1000' thick OVC layers with VMC above.  Ask for a block and just fly around in IMC, gaining confidence as you go.

The real weather is out there, and it's not all that much fun.  You'll have plenty of time to experience it after you've got your IR.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I like the idea of dedicating 3 weeks for the IR.  In 21 days you can cover it all well enough to get the rating.  

And as for where — how about coastal northern California?  It’s usually 500 overcast every morning until noon.  

[N201MKTurbo]

While training in real weather is great experience, it is not the fastest and cheapest route to a successful check ride. There is no requirement in the IR PTS to have ever flown in a cloud.

If you want the best training, do all your instrument training at night. The visual clues from the sun and shadows is cheating. You will develop your instrument stick and rudder skills faster at night where you really are flying by instruments.

As others have said, wait until you have your instrument rating before you learn to fly in weather. It wouldn't hurt to do your first few weather flights with an instructor or experienced instrument pilot.

Edited June 27, 2018 by N201MKTurbo

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Around here this is the worst time of the year to do it. You have to do it between 5:00 AM and 9:00 AM or it is just miserable.

This is my life right now, yes. 

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah, here in Texas it's the wrong time of year as well. I keep the Mooney flying through Oshkosh and we actually try to use it to go somewhere cooler. We're leaving Friday for Churchill Manitoba. 

On returning from Oshkosh, she goes in for annual. August is just too miserable to fly around here.

[kortopates]

I am a fan of doing much of the training at night as well. I learned that way myself and it is much more realistic than daytime with the hood for all the reasons stated above.
But I couldn't imagine getting an IR without logging lots of IMC time. But I understand in a great many areas of country it isn't really possible to do it any other way. CU is not the kind of clouds to train in nor fly in. But also as stated above, one has to get the prerequisite skills down before they are ready to fly approaches and then fly them under IFR where a 200' altitude excursion is a pilot deviation. So it takes some time to build up it, but once there I wouldn't pass up any opportunity to get real world IMC training. My student's log lots of IMC thanks to the marine layer which is the perfect training environment. But I couldn't imagine a new IR pilot heading off into IMC conditions for the first time without an instructor on board - even though it happens all the time. Much better to get actual during training.


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[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Around here this is the worst time of the year to do it. You have to do it between 5:00 AM and 9:00 AM or it is just miserable.

This is the 3rd consecutive day I've worked in San Carlos and will be there again Friday. The morning flight, departing KAVQ for P13 at 6:45AM is beautiful. The afternoon flight home, between 2PM and 5PM, over the mountains in 40ºC heat, not so much fun. This week actually hasn't been as bad as the last couple months when the wind made the turbulence much worse. And, the higher gross weight and higher wing loading of the Baron helps. And of course the air conditioning . . . without air conditioning I would be making the 2+ hour drive each way versus a 23-24 minute flight.

[N201MKTurbo]

17 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

This is the 3rd consecutive day I've worked in San Carlos and will be there again Friday. The morning flight, departing KAVQ for P13 at 6:45AM is beautiful. The afternoon flight home, between 2PM and 5PM, over the mountains in 40ºC heat, not so much fun. This week actually hasn't been as bad as the last couple months when the wind made the turbulence much worse. And, the higher gross weight and higher wing loading of the Baron helps. And of course the air conditioning . . . without air conditioning I would be making the 2+ hour drive each way versus a 23-24 minute flight.

you are so spoiled!

[xavierde]

Thank you for all the valuable tips. I fly a lot in the UK and will do so with the IR and that's why I would like to encounter some weather during the training and not first the first time as a new minted IR pilot. I would also like to work on my ADM and develop personal minimums as well as really understand situations like icing... I guess the night training could be a good way to do it during the Summer then I could always fly with an instructor on some winter days to learn more about the specific weather.

Edited June 28, 2018 by xavierde

[thinwing]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I like the idea of dedicating 3 weeks for the IR.  In 21 days you can cover it all well enough to get the rating.  

And as for where — how about coastal northern California?  It’s usually 500 overcast every morning until noon.  

All the way to Washington state...

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

And of course the air conditioning . . . without air conditioning I would be making the 2+ hour drive each way versus a 23-24 minute flight.

I've been loading my B-Kool up every  morning.   Ran it nearly two hours constantly this morning and it was still blowing cool-ish (well, less warm than ambient) air when I taxied back to the hangar at about 11am.

[midlifeflyer]

There is definitely a difference between learning to fly in weather and learning to fly in the "worst possible" weather.

I'm with some of the other lucky ones. I did my instrument training at night in New England. Visual cues leaking around the foggles are more disorienting than helpful. And we got a decent amount of actual, including two real missed approaches (one on an ILS). Once or twice icing was a concern but we never picked up more than a trace of rime. Plus, doing them after work meant sometimes I was tired - not the best for learning a new task, but definitely a "real world" honing of skills and procedures.

I still think the mix I got was almost ideal. But I also think instrument flying is far more about understanding procedures than anything else. And bumping around is not necessarily the best classroom.

[steingar]

Says me do the rating wherever you are.  If you're that flexible come to the Northeast, you'll be plenty of bad weather over time.  But just go somewhere, get going and get it done, that's the main thing.  When you start penetrating bad wx back home you can take a CFI with you the first few times.  I'm certain they have those in England, I just imagine they talk funny.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with the "just get it done" crowd. It's a very useful rating for Mooney drivers. I use mine regularly... but almost never get an actual approach. But it allows me to go when everyone else is stuck on the ground because of weather. I can file, take off, spend 5 seconds in the clouds before breaking out on top and going VFR the rest of the flight. 

Just get it done.

[Hank]

IFR is extremely useful for traveling. But you'll want your first several lessons to be in VFR conditions while you are filling out the power setting chart, learning your scan and figuring out how to fly where you want to go when you can't see. Airplane control is primary, and you need to learn to trust the gages and do what they say, not what your body says. Do this first, then worry about getting some actual. I had the pleasure [?] of spatial D with my CFII, in actual, when I forgot to slow down and turned into an approach at cruise speed, falling out the bottom of the cloud. Seeing the snow-covered hills was a wakeup call! It's better to do that under supervision that on a trip with your family.

Reading all of this makes me wonder . . . . am I the only one here who actually flies in IMC? When I had my tanks resealed, I left FXE and went in the clouds below 1000 msl, climbed out the top to cruise at 9000 msl, only to have the clouds rise around me until I eventually came out the bottom somewhere north of Orlando, still at 9000 msl. I also went roundtrip, KHTW-->BNA, and only saw the ground for ~45 seconds at each takeoff and about 3nm on each landing. No, home didn't have an approach, I shot ILS30 into KHTS, broke out and went the rest of the way VFR somewhere below 2000 msl. Just recently, I picked up my plane with a fresh IFR cert [after a lengthy trashy weather delay] and went KPLR-->41A in IMC; entered the clouds after clearing the ridges in N. Alabama, broke out on the GPS13 into 06A and proceeded home VFR.

Get a good instructor, study hard and get everything pounded into your head. Mine took almost a year, August-April, with lots of time at night after work. Start out in daylight until you know what you're doing and have good control under the foggles.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Out here where we get 4-5 hours of IMC every year, it is hard to keep current. The only time you get any actual is when you go somewhere else.

[KLRDMD]

18 hours ago, EricJ said:

I've been loading my B-Kool up every  morning.   Ran it nearly two hours constantly this morning and it was still blowing cool-ish (well, less warm than ambient) air when I taxied back to the hangar at about 11am.

I had a B-Kool in the Mooney. And I had a freezer in the hangar. That was fine for going somewhere but way too often I couldn't get ice for the return trip home, which, this time of year is the more important leg to have cooling on.

[Yetti]

Look at Brazos Valley Flight Service in College Station Texas.

[Nomad Pilot]

I used Gatts 10 day course. They put an emphasis on single pilot IFR training and its a complete package at a respectable price.


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