AI needs overhaul, time to upgrade? Advice?

[KSMooniac]

Quote: allsmiles

My point exactly.  Quitting in flight like this is unnacceptable!  I' sorry. I don't care if they swap it out for a new one or whatever they do after the fact. I don't want it to quit!!  Period.  Why didn't they think of this during the r&d or quality control? Seems like they are playing catch up and rushing to bring these boxes to the marketplace that they miss things.

[PTK]

Quote: KSMooniac

My point exactly.  Quitting in flight like this is unnacceptable!  I' sorry. I don't care if they swap it out for a new one or whatever they do after the fact. I don't want it to quit!!  Period.  Why didn't they think of this during the r&d or quality control? Seems like they are playing catch up and rushing to bring these boxes to the marketplace that they miss things.

[Vref]

Quote: allsmiles

I don't think the instruments are going to be obsolete I think the skill required to overhaul is going to be obsolete soonerthan the instruments.  Electronic gadgets and boards just doesn't sit right with me.  And not to be picking on Aspen but frankly they don't appear to have the adequate quality control and r and d. It seems they release boxes that either they don't play well with each other or with existing avionics. There always seems to be some glitch. Their answer is to fix the problem swap boards swap units etc.  Who has time for this hassle.  I just don't feel they or the product is ready for prime time.  

[John Pleisse]

I know of a gentleman who said for 12 straight years..."I'm not buying one of those Garmin 430 radios...the second I do, they'll just come out with something better". Well, the did...12 years later (a third to half of a flying career for most people). The vexing question is, when does one jump in and realize the benifit? And the fact of the matter is, I have flown aircraft both VFR and IMC and have watched FCS gyros go tits up, so Garmin and Aspen cutting their teeth on new technology is not a fair analysis.

[PTK]

Quote: N4352H

I know of a gentleman who said for 12 straight years..."I'm not buying one of those Garmin 430 radios...the second I do, they'll just come out with something better". Well, the did...12 years later (a third to half of a flying career for most people). The vexing question is, when does one jump in and realize the benifit? And the fact of the matter is, I have flown aircraft both VFR and IMC and have watched FCS gyros go tits up, so Garmin and Aspen cutting their teeth on new technology is not a fair analysis.

[gsengle]

Quote: allsmiles

I think we need to stick to all applesor all oranges!  Yes they did come out with somrthing beter. The GTN 750. A huge improvement on the 430/530 boxes which in their own right were huge improvements on the RNAV boxes.  But in this case we are talking about taking out perfectly capable King HSIs for what? Aspen or g500??  Where is the benefit. I don't see it. I callthis path a downgrade!

[Magnum]

Quote: KSMooniac

My point exactly.  Quitting in flight like this is unnacceptable!  I' sorry. I don't care if they swap it out for a new one or whatever they do after the fact. I don't want it to quit!!  Period.  Why didn't they think of this during the r&d or quality control? Seems like they are playing catch up and rushing to bring these boxes to the marketplace that they miss things.

[peter]

Quote: Magnum

How do you know they didn't think of that???  They could require an avionics cooling fan that perhaps the shop neglected to install, yet you automatically blame the manufacturer?  There are lots of these units in the field performing to spec, and they would not have gotten certified in the first place if there were rampant problems with overheating or other glitches...

[bnicolette]

Hey Greg,

That was a lot of fun, but now back to one of your original questions:

Which electric AI to purchase?

I can only comment on one and that is the RC Allen.  I purchased one off Barnstormers for $1100 and it came with a fresh 8130 with 6 month warranty.  The gentleman sent it back to the factory when I bought it for a fresh bench check and tag.  I guess it is extremely important to run them at least 5 minutes per month.  Apparently the grease in the bearings needs to be moved around a bit or it will settle???  So if you opt for a used one, just be sure that it has been an active one.  I also hear (don't bite my head off fellow aviators, this is just what I've read) that the electric gyros will outlast their vacuum relatives???

There is another one that I was looking at and it is one with the battery backup in the event of power failure, but this would be a REAL bad day in the airplane when you loose vacuum to your primary gyro and electric to your standby gyro??  I suppose Murphy can bite us and I love a good game of "what if", but it's just not likely.

 

 

[PTK]

Quote: peter

How do you know they didn't think of that???  They could require an avionics cooling fan that perhaps the shop neglected to install, yet you automatically blame the manufacturer?  There are lots of these units in the field performing to spec, and they would not have gotten certified in the first place if there were rampant problems with overheating or other glitches...

[bnicolette]

How much would a panel like that cost out the door?  Just the Aspen units install.  Just curious?

[PTK]

Installed probably very close to 25-30K !!!  

I neglected on my previous post, any "upgrade"  has to be worthy of the airplane it is going in and also it has to be wothy of what it is replacing.  In this case Aspen has some very big shoes to fill in replacing the King equipment.  So big that it can't fill them and it shows.  This is not bad by the way.  Aspen is trying and so is Garmin.  This is  a good thing.  There may come a time when these will be able to be called "upgrades".  The time has not come yet. 

[KSMooniac]

Quote: allsmiles

Installed probably very close to 25-30K !!!  

I neglected on my previous post, any "upgrade"  has to be worthy of the airplane it is going in and also it has to be wothy of what it is replacing.  In this case Aspen has some very big shoes to fill in replacing the King equipment.  So big that it can't fill them and it shows.  This is not bad by the way.  Aspen is trying and so is Garmin.  This is  a good thing.  There may come a time when these will be able to be called "upgrades".  The time has not come yet. 

[bnicolette]

Whoa!  This thread just won't stop......

Okay.....Let's lay some prices out on the table just so I know.................

Repair prices for my gyro instruments:

Attitude Indicator (Also connected to the autopilot) - $600   Overhaul  $900

Century HSI with Slaving - Overhauled/Repaired   $1450

Those are quoted prices except the repair of $600 on the attitude indicator which was done in 2010.  Before that, it was overhauled in 1990.

So grand price for fixing my instruments max would be $2350. 

How much would a single Aspen cost me including install?

[Magnum]

Quote: Bnicolette

Whoa!  This thread just won't stop......

Okay.....Let's lay some prices out on the table just so I know.................

Repair prices for my gyro instruments:

Attitude Indicator (Also connected to the autopilot) - $600   Overhaul  $900

Century HSI with Slaving - Overhauled/Repaired   $1450

Those are quoted prices except the repair of $600 on the attitude indicator which was done in 2010.  Before that, it was overhauled in 1990.

So grand price for fixing my instruments max would be $2350. 

How much would a single Aspen cost me including install?

[Magnum]

Quote: Bnicolette

Whoa!  This thread just won't stop......

[bnicolette]

Quote: Magnum

You can't compare the overhaul of the unit to the price of a new one.

[John Pleisse]

The Great Don Maxwell said this to me once (please image the thick East TX accent as you read)....."John, I live here in East TX, where the Skeeter Bass Boat was born and bred. I have people who come up to me and say.. oooooo, you own an airplane? That must be soooo expensive. I don't know how anyone can afford that! Then it occurs to me (Don still in quotes here)....this man owns a brand new 20' bass boat, and a top of the line Gator Trailer...and gee, you now need a brand new $45,000 Suburban to tow the thing.. Bottom line, John....it's not wha'ts practical, it's not what you can afford....John, it's what you w-a-n-t".

[KSMooniac]

Very, very true!  I don't golf or scuba dive or <insert another expensive hobby> nor do I drive new vehicles so I can own my Mooney.  I have some bicycles, guns, and some other interests that don't really cost anything to use like a plane/boat/golf/etc.  I want to be a Mooney owner and pilot, I can afford it (more or less) so I do it.  Some day I might want an Aspen enough to buy one.    I also want a turbo-normalizer and a few other blingy bits for my mistress too...

[PTK]

Quote: KSMooniac

A single installed Aspen PFD costs no where near that... and in fact less than half of your estimate.  While you call it a downgrade, go look at the price history on the used market for the King FD/HSI systems since Aspen and Garmin have entered that market and tell me that they can't fill those shoes... the market speaks loudly and clearly and it is valuing the mechanical King systems less and less with each passing year.  

I don't have a FD or HSI in my plane, but if I did and either of them shot craps I would not waste any money overhauling them and instead would spring for an Aspen.  There is just too much upside for these modern systems IMO.

[PTK]

Quote: gsengle

I think we need to stick to all applesor all oranges!  Yes they did come out with somrthing beter. The GTN 750. A huge improvement on the 430/530 boxes which in their own right were huge improvements on the RNAV boxes.  But in this case we are talking about taking out perfectly capable King HSIs for what? Aspen or g500??  Where is the benefit. I don't see it. I callthis path a downgrade!

[peter]

Quote: allsmiles

Scott the cost of the three units as shown on Peter Lyon's post IS 25-30K.  

 

List price for the Evolution 2500 system in my aircraft is $22,895

[bnicolette]

Peter,

Does the Aspen system have the capability to run EVS (such as Max-Viz) through it?  I don't know if there is an STC for that right now for the Mooney, but surely it has to be in our future if it's not?

[peter]

Quote: allsmiles

Obviously this operator experienced equipment failure.  Did the other unfortunate operators, and that is plural, whose units failed on the way home from a fresh install also experiemce equipment failure?  I respect Mr. Lyons your opinion. You surely can understand however that the joy of flying requires a large amount of confidence in our airplanes.  Having your units fail so frequently does detract from this confidence level in an otherwise solid and dependable airplane.  And  it isn't the airplane that's at fault! In other words an "upgrade" has to be worthy of the airplane it is going in.

[peter]

Quote: Bnicolette

Peter,

Does the Aspen system have the capability to run EVS (such as Max-Viz) through it?  I don't know if there is an STC for that right now for the Mooney, but surely it has to be in our future if it's not?