AI needs overhaul, time to upgrade? Advice?

[gsengle]

Well, here is my panel.  ’96 Ovation.  At some point I'm planning to add GPSS and a backup AI, and then I think its perfect.  (you can’t see the Stormscope or Skywatch which are displayed on the 530, and I plan to get weather on my iPad with an ADS-B receiver)  I have the spot for the electric backup AI, and the GPSS doesn’t need much space.

But here is my dilemma.  I'm kinda old school, and like the way the AI/FD and HSI look, so wasn't planning on going to an Aspen, certainly not any time soon.  I have enough capability and I’m saving the money for an upcoming overhaul.  I figured I'd add the standby electric AI in the spot on the bottom left, and GPSS doesn't take much space.  (although I'm not sure which product to buy in either case - advice?)

But here is the problem.  My AI looks like it is in need of an overhaul.  $2,000.  GPSS, $2,000?  Backup AI, $2,000?  I'd solve for both the backup AI and the GPSS with the aspen.  Do I really want to do this?  My inclination is to repair the AI, and save up for the backup AI and then the GPSS over time.  Does the aspen work seamlessly with the king KFC-150 autopilot?

Thoughts?!

Greg

 

 

 

[KSMooniac]

Sooner or later your HSI is going to roll over as well, and you'll be faced with a similar decision.  I think the Aspen is a great choice (even though I don't have one, nor an HSI in my plane) and with the new autopilot adapter I think the upgrade choice is easy.  If I were you, I would go for the Aspen and EA100 A/P interface now, and sell/trade your working HSI system to offset some of the cost.  Aspen gets you the GPSS as well, so you'll avoid spending the money for the separate module.  

For the backup AI, you have a couple choices... you could downgrade to a "plain" vacuum powered AI or go for an electric version (perhaps with battery backup) and remove your entire vacuum system to recover some additional useful load.  

Think hard about your ownership timeline and upgrade path, and keep in mind that as more of the old King HSI systems are replaced with Aspens (or Garmins), the less residual value your HSI will retain.  You might get a couple thousand out of it today, or very little in a year or two...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Pretty much everything Scott said.  I was able to trade a lot of my equipment for good money towards a panel upgrade over a year ago when I had my M20J.  Looking back now, I should have sold it on my own and probably would have kept an additional $3K or so that I didn't realize in the trade.

Your equipment has pretty good value now, so I'd take the opportunity to get into some better equipment.  While I prefer Garmin's PFD/MFD combinations as well as the overall appearance in the panel, Aspen's unit is probably perfect based on how you're currently equipped and your goals within the panel.

For me, this is a no-brainer as that HSI won't be cheap to overhaul.

You should also consider selling that DME.  Ditching mine got me several pounds of useful load and one less antenna   It's still worth something, too.

[gsengle]

Really good points.  I'm now thinking, overhaul the AI anyway, since I'll just move it to become the backup when someday I do the aspen.  And then when I'm ready to spend on backup ai/gpss, just do the aspen.  I can't imagine taking out the vacuum system will save that much weight...  Would it be worth buying a 2k electric AI just to remove the vacuum system?  How much might I get for the AI/HSI?  I'd get more for the AI in working order I'm sure...

 

g

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: gsengle

Really good points.  I'm now thinking, overhaul the AI anyway, since I'll just move it to become the backup when someday I do the aspen.  And then when I'm ready to spend on backup ai/gpss, just do the aspen.  I can't imagine taking out the vacuum system will save that much weight...  Would it be worth buying a 2k electric AI just to remove the vacuum system?  How much might I get for the AI/HSI?  I'd get more for the AI in working order I'm sure...

g

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: gsengle

How much might I get for the AI/HSI?  I'd get more for the AI in working order I'm sure...

[gsengle]

Is there any argument for looking at the G500?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: gsengle

Is there any argument for looking at the G500?

[John Pleisse]

I just did the Aspen. It replaced a 700 hour standard RC Allen AI and a 20 year old, never overhauled-starting to slip Century NSD HSI. It's a no brainer for the PFD only. Parker's comments about what works with the G500 is correct...your KX155 won't work on the G500, but EVERYTHING you have will work with the Aspen. If you want to solve your King AI/FD issue, go for the Aspen stand alone PFD. If you are considering an EFD/MFD combo, put the time in to make your own, very thorough consumer soul searching.

I spent months evaluating both systems and arrived at the Aspen 2000 EFD/MFD dual ADAHRS combo. This was the right thing for me comparing apples and oranges and suited what I personally though my best dollar would buy. In the end, it was only $3k less than the Garmin.

Put the time in. I can't over emphasize it enough.

John

[PTK]

Quote: gsengle

Do I really want to do this?  My inclination is to repair the AI, and save up for the backup AI and then the GPSS over time.  

[PTK]

One thing I neglected to mention, if you really want glass I would wait.  Garmin just put out the GTN 750 which is really nice and big.  It is a GPS/COMM/MFD.  It renders the MFD portion of the G500  and Aspen unecessary.  I'm certain Garmin will come up with a PFD only version and slash the cost.  I'm getting the GTN 750 with the remote audio panel and transponder installed next week.  It really cleans up the panel.

[bnicolette]

Quote: allsmiles

No!! I wouldn't!  You have a very solid and beautiful KFC 150.  I would overhaul both HSI and AI if needed.  Put the extra money in a new vaccuum pump q 500 hours if you want to be proactive.  I have the same exact  thing and I love it. I would not downgrade to an Aspen or a G500 for that matter. Think about it. You still would need the existing instruments as backups! What is the point?  And I did say downgrade!

[Magnum]

If you want to keep your old intruments, you have to pay 6 AMU's. The value of your Mooney will be the same, and if you are unlucky you'll have to overhaul the HSI in the near future. The only real benefit you get is the GPSS.

If you put in an Aspen, you'll have to pay 12 AMU's but you'll save 4 AMU's for the Backup AI and the GPSS. Sell the HSI and get another 2 AMU's. So that's 6 AMU's more, but IMHO the value of your bird will increase for approx. the same amount. And you have guaranty on the unit. Even if you don't like the airspeed and altitude tapes, switch them off. The background map can be disabled, too.  And maybe you'll like the minimums or altitude alert. Or the airdata computer which shows the real wind conditions you encounter. If electric power fails you have a backup GPS and the system runs for another 30 minutes.

I am a little bit biased, as I needed a HSI and Backup AI and bought the Aspen. Got my IR behind it and was glad that I had it (made situational awareness during the training very easy). I don't want to fly without it anymore.

[gsengle]

Quote: Bnicolette

No!! I wouldn't!  You have a very solid and beautiful KFC 150.  I would overhaul both HSI and AI if needed.  Put the extra money in a new vaccuum pump q 500 hours if you want to be proactive.  I have the same exact  thing and I love it. I would not downgrade to an Aspen or a G500 for that matter. Think about it. You still would need the existing instruments as backups! What is the point?  And I did say downgrade!

[jelswick]

I would have suggested the Aspen too.  I have it and love it, but looks like this discussions already been there and done that.  Good luck!

[PTK]

It seems there are some assumptions made here that are not supported by the facts.  One is that the electric King HSI is very expensive to overhaul.  This is simply incorrect.  I think I was quoted around $1000 for the HSI when Iasked about the AI.  I think for both insteruments it was around $2K or a little over.   The other assumption that is being made is that the Aspen or G500 is somehow 'better" than the King HSI /AI and those "old" instruments are going to be worthless. This is also not correct in my opinion.   Is an older swiss timepiece worthless and is a battery operated digital watch better?  I guess one's perception is reality.  Personally I wouldn't dismiss these instruments as inferior.  In my panel they will be there for many years to come playing happily right next to my brand new GTN 750.  This gives me all the situational awareness I need.  Also ask anyone who has "upgraded" to the Aspen or the G500 about their experience.  Read some posts on the web.  I think for most it has not been as simple as just installing it.  There have been plenty of malfunctioning issues that frankly are a royal waste of time.  For that kind of money I would expect to fly away and be done.  Not have to go back and forth to correct things.  Just some thoughts.

[John Pleisse]

I think if you have an upper end King or better FD/HSI combo, fix it (now, before it's too late). If you have older gyros, no HSI or high time equiment, get an EFD. The value of gyros goes down, while their repair and maintenance continues to increase..this is inarguable.

[Vref]

Not restarting the discussion but here is some interesting reading...

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/sn3500/index.html

The question that I would ask myself is first: $$$$ then MTBF then Operational benefit....but we have been there haven't we...;-)

[bnicolette]

Quote: N4352H

I think if you have an upper end King or better FD/HSI combo, fix it (now, before it's too late). If you have older gyros, no HSI or high time equiment, get an EFD. The value of gyros goes down, while their repair and maintenance continues to increase..

[Vref]

Well I started my career in aviation repairing DC10 avionics. It was state of the art technology 70's 80's ...till it became to expensive to repair all the sophisticated ADI's, HSI's, INS's etc....The airlines went glass...

Electronics are also less time consuming in the repairshop...board swap's etc...So I guess we will be all looking at glass in the near future..;-))....but in some countries they will love to see the pricedrop of second hand HSI's and ATT indicators

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Bnicolette

I have to agree John.  I guess there are many ways to look at this.  Surely, in time the cost of any EFIS system has to come down especially as new competitors enter the market, but in direct relation to that, our "steam" gauges are also losing value rapidly.  As more of these systems become available to the home builder market, which has kept some of our instrumentation and radios values higher, the lower the values are going to go.  I don't know though that the repair costs will increase a whole lot?  They have to keep the repair costs competitive or it's going to make more monetary sense to swap out to the EFIS??

If money were no object, I suppose I probably would have the latest and greatest, but being on a budget I have to pick and choose where my precious dollars go so I can continue to complete my missions.  So I am more on the utility side of the equation.

[John Pleisse]

Quote; From Jim R. :personally, but I don't have either the budget nor the mission requirements of some of you guys.  To each his/her own . . .

I have three young kids and would never spend gobs of personal cash......my upgrades and aircraft expense float in my corporation. I could not afford it otherwise. If business is bad..the Mooney goes buh-bye.

[PTK]

Quote: Vref

Well I started my career in aviation repairing DC10 avionics. It was state of the art technology 70's 80's ...till it became to expensive to repair all the sophisticated ADI's, HSI's, INS's etc....The airlines went glass...

Electronics are also less time consuming in the repairshop...board swap's etc...So I guess we will be all looking at glass in the near future..;-))....but in some countries they will love to see the pricedrop of second hand HSI's and ATT indicators

[Magnum]

IMHO a lot depends on the installation quality. My avionics shop has a very good reputation in Europe, they told me that the only problem they have is heat. One Aspen quit in hard IMC due to overheating, they recommend to cool it with the radio blower.

My installation went flawlessly and I had no problem so far (knock on wood).

[PTK]

Quote: Magnum

 One Aspen quit in hard IMC due to overheating, they recommend to cool it 0with the radio blower.