Flying from the right

[Red_Bird_Flies]

Hey everyone, 

I've spent countless hours researching this online but can't seem to find any tips or tricks. I've started flying my '65 M-20E from the right seat as I've got my CFI check ride coming up but I've got one issue: my left thumb is double jointed! I can't press the release button with enough pressure to release the bar as my thumb completely collapses in on itself. So I spent my last flight in slow flight just wrestling with the thing in every different way: I've tried using my pointer finger and the upper palm of my hand but my hand is too small to still maintain a grip on the bar itself. So my question is this: has anyone flown their Mooney from the right and disengaged the J-bar in an unconventional way that I haven't considered? 

Thanks so much, 
J

[gsxrpilot]

I'm surprised you've got brakes on the right side. Most Mooney's don't. 

Can't help you with the J-bar.

[Red_Bird_Flies]

3 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm surprised you've got brakes on the right side. Most Mooney's don't. 

Can't help you with the J-bar.

No brakes, which is why I have to have full faith in my instructor and CFI testing administrator ha! 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Red Bird

A couple of Questions for you, while waiting....

Do have the same joint challenge on the other thumb as well?

Will you have the same issue when lowering the gear?

 

You might want to include where you are located in your avatar information...  another MSer in your area might be able to lend you a thumb while you experiment with what works best for you...

I have tried to release the button (old M20C) in the past using the opposite hand, but don’t recall the results...

PP thoughts that come to mind, not a CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

[Red_Bird_Flies]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard, Red Bird

A couple of Questions for you, while waiting....

Do have the same joint challenge on the other thumb as well?

Will you have the same issue when lowering the gear?

 

You might want to include where you are located in your avatar information...  another MSer in your area might be able to lend you a thumb while you experiment with what works best for you...

I have tried to release the button (old M20C) in the past using the opposite hand, but don’t recall the results...

PP thoughts that come to mind, not a CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

I got my CPL in this Mooney and I was able to operate the J-bar without issue from the left since I don’t have the same issue with my right thumb. 

Thankfully I can lower the gear from the right without issue since I don’t need to press the release button at all to get it into the cradle. 

I’m considering asking the man I took my CPL checkride with (who is also the owner of the school where I am about to start instructing) to fly left seat with me and see if he’s got any suggestions. I know there’s got to be an unconventional method I just haven’t considered yet lol

Thanks,

J

[carusoam]

Since it is only related to releasing the button.... 

Are you able to reach and operate the button while flying with the left hand on the yoke?

Things to consider...

1) once the button is released, it usually stays released. But, it may misbehave...

2) The gear handle may not move on its own. Allows time for the left hand to get ready...

3) If the gear handle does move on its own... the gear will settle in the half way position...

4) gear in the half way position requires extra strength to put away.... loss of momentum...

5) Airspeed is important to this... the gear doors at higher speeds are trying to pull the gear down.

6) Slow air speeds are beneficial to putting gear away...

7) If you have any concern about what you are going to do... Consider putting the plane up on jacks and run through all the options while on the ground...

8) while up on jacks... the only thing missing is the force of the wind on the gear doors...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bartman]

I have never flown a Mooney wth a Johnson bar, but how about this. Do you have an autopilot and can you use both hands, or even tho right hand just for a moment to work the gear ?

[takair]

Will try and describe my technique in words.  Left hand around gear handle in the natural way your hand wants to hold it.  Then, thumb is hooked around the side closest to you....most of it at the intersection of the palm and thumb.  Middle, ring and pinky holding opposite side of handle.  Then, I am able to get enough of my pointer against the release button so that I can get it to disengage and pull down.  Once it is unlatched you can get your hand around it in a more conventional way.  To summarize, I use the middle joint of my pointer to push the button sideways.  Hard to describe, especially without knowing the right terms for the different joints...  maybe one of our medical friends can translate what I said into proper anatomical parts.  I can always take a picture too or describe via phone. 

[Red_Bird_Flies]

So many great ideas! 

Takair,

While that’s a great alternative, I’ve tried the knuckle option but my hand is simply too small. I can’t get enough of a grip on the bar itself while using my pointer finger knuckle to release the bar. 

Bartman and Carusoam,

no autopilot. As of now, I've just used my right hand to release the bar and my left to follow through with locking the bar on the ground. This is a lot of unecessary crossover during a ciritical stage of flight and I doubt my CFI check ride administrator will approve.

- Jen

Edited March 31, 2018 by Red_Bird_Flies

[carusoam]

Keep in mind that raising the gear can wait until you are at a safe(r) altitude.

Climbing to a thousand feet agl doesn’t take much time.

one challenge you may see... 

The Mooney will be trying to go fast at the time you try to raise the gear.  New pilots try to raise the gear earlier.  Experienced pilot raise the nose to keep climbing at a slower IAS...

Discuss what you are going to do before surprising your copilot with your good idea.

Can you see what I Mean? I’m trying, but may not have the skill to say it right...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

[takair]

An alternative is, like the brakes, negotiate in advance that the eximiner will release the button.  You could encorporate it into the lesson plan and use it as a “teaching” moment.  I have to admit, the gear was one of the hardest parts going for my CFI.  Going for you CFII is a little easier in this respect, because you can argue that the student would already be knowledgeable in gear retraction.  If they insist on you demonstrating it, you already know you can do it using the two handed cross over...

 I have had one student get so fixated on the gear that they basically stopped flying the plane.  They couldn’t get it unlatched from the left seat.  By reaching over, and pushing the button, they were able to do the slide latch.  Basically, you break down the gear retraction into discrete steps and the student learns the individual parts to get the feal.  

 

 

[Red_Bird_Flies]

Carusoam,

Per my testing administrator’s traffic pattern standards, he wants 1) gear retraction 2) 25, 25 3) flaps raised and 4) fuel pump off - in that specific order. And he wants me to turn crosswind at 500 AGL. I doubt he’ll be ok with me waiting until 1000 AGL lol

takair,

I LOVE that idea! I’m apparently going to be “teaching” him commercial maneuvers so it would be a great way to incorporate him in his “first” takeoff. Thanks for this idea!!

- Jen

[BDPetersen]

Maybe a different testing administrator. I’d have a dispute with that sequence,and power setting plus I believe the A.I.M. still calls for first turn at 300’ below pattern altitude (or words to that effect).

[carusoam]

Practice at an altitude that works for you... this way you know what to expect from your performance...

With the second pilot on board, you have a safety.  Be ready and have discussed it in advance...

If uncomfortable... something needs to change...  more practice, different procedure or different part of the country...?

We have a few CFIIs around here that will be around over some time...

Best regards,

-a-

[Red_Bird_Flies]

23 minutes ago, BDPetersen said:

Maybe a different testing administrator. I’d have a dispute with that sequence,and power setting plus I believe the A.I.M. still calls for first turn at 300’ below pattern altitude (or words to that effect).

300 below pattern altitude was exactly what I was taught! However, previous CFI’s who tested with this particular administrator said he prefers turning crosswind at 500 AGL regardless when he’s testing at his home airport.

and Carusoam,

I’ve got two weeks until my checkride so I’ve got time to work on this, just really hoping to master it sooner rather than later!

-Jen

[kpaul]

6 minutes ago, Red_Bird_Flies said:

300 below pattern altitude was exactly what I was taught! However, previous CFI’s who tested with this particular administrator said he prefers turning crosswind at 500 AGL regardless when he’s testing at his home airport.

and Carusoam,

I’ve got two weeks until my checkride so I’ve got time to work on this, just really hoping to master it sooner rather than later!

-Jen

I can't stand CFIs/DPEs that teach what they prefer, techniques as procedures (aka. techcedures)

On the departure leg after takeoff, the pilot should continue climbing straight ahead and, if remaining in the traffic pattern, commence a turn to the crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/09_afh_ch7.pdf

[Red_Bird_Flies]

39 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I can't stand CFIs/DPEs that teach what they prefer, techniques as procedures (aka. techcedures)

On the departure leg after takeoff, the pilot should continue climbing straight ahead and, if remaining in the traffic pattern, commence a turn to the crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/09_afh_ch7.pdf

Definitely not arguing with you there, it’s what I’ve been taught since my first flight.

- Jen

[RLCarter]

 I use to fly my buddies C from the right all the time, what I used was similar to @takair technique above. Index finger to push the release button, slight forward pressure on the bar and a twisting (back and forth) motion on the grip. This the technique that worked for me, also make sure your FAA examiner is aware there is only brakes on the LH side. Good luck on your check ride and let us know how it went

[carusoam]

The power of MS is awesome!

I always wanted to fly my M20C from the right seat... just to see if my arm strength could move the bar properly... in case I somehow needed to...?  There was no MS back then to ask these fine questions to at the time....

Never quite took that step. Didn’t need to once I learned the air speed control routine... more finesse than strength...  Even less likely to now with the O...

 

Jen, is your Mooney actually a red bird?  

MS had a red Mooney back about 8 years ago p, all red, with the modern logo painted down the side... really impressive paint scheme...

Another Red Mooney we have had around here was owned by Bryan (sp) who liked to fly it into the back country. Including some unimproved strips... great videos around here somewhere...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[BDPetersen]

Some enterprising designer should come up with a claw-type device to grasp and unlatch the gear left handed. It wouldn’t have to be a permanent fixture, just a tool for the unlatching. Come to think of it, my artritic right thumb might enjoy something like that. I hear tell that some have a new fangled  switch that moves the gear.

[Red_Bird_Flies]

carusoam,

Thankfully the actual movement from cradle to floor latch is as easy from the right as it is on the left - you’re right, airspeed is key! Once you get the timing down it’s a breeze. It’s just that darn thumb latch that’s making this so difficult! And no, the Mooney is blue, I’M the red bird (redhead).

RLCarter,

It’s definitely been an adjustment not having brakes but it’s been fun seeing all the less effective ways I can slow her down... namely getting a flat on one of the taxiways haha don’t really know who was losing nails but I did my part in helping him find at least one of them lol

BDPeterson,

A switch to lower the gear you say? Well why didn’t I think of that?  But yes, the claw-type device idea would be a great help at this stage of my training lol

-Jen

[wcb]

Just a quick thought.  Can you do your flight in another bird (rent one with electric gear for example) and keep yours as a personal flyer?

[Red_Bird_Flies]

3 minutes ago, wcb said:

Just a quick thought.  Can you do your flight in another bird (rent one with electric gear for example) and keep yours as a personal flyer?

I’ve already considered that! But I’ve already submitted this plane’s info to the FSDO for my ride so I’m wondering what kind of paperwork I’ll be stuck with. 

Also, at this point it’s a pride issue lol I can’t let it win!!

- Jen

[Andy95W]

How about a lever that comes down from above to give a bit more leverage on the button, and a bit more length as well to actuate it?

[bonal]

How about a pair of channel locks with some tape on the jaws