M20E Fuel Starvation Accident

[johncuyle]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but my routine is to land on fullest. That means when I preflight I'm still on fullest. So it's gascolator, switch, gascolator, switch, preflight, start, switch, taxi, switch, run-up, fly. Taxi plus maybe fiddling with radios takes at least a minute, so I've verified fuel feed from both tanks on the ground and I'm starting on the fullest and doing run-up and takeoff on the fullest without a switch in between.


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[wcb]

 

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

When I was burning the fuel down to begin the CiES installation I was intent on getting them down below 5 gallons per side indicated. Since I was periodically getting a fuel mismatch error on the JPI and watching the fuel quantity bounce between 4 and 7 gallons, I didn't want to unexpectedly run a tank dry. I have none of those concerns with the CiES. They are as advertised, very accurate. 

When I had issues with my mechanical senders, I think I was quoted $200 per sender for refurbishing them (included postage). Since I wasn't sure which sender was causing the issue, I was planning on sending in all 4. It came down to $800 for refurbishing 42 year old senders or paying $1500 (Oshkosh sale price) for new ones that claimed better accuracy. It was a good decision because the accuracy is just that much better. I can actually feel comfortable in the 5 gallon per side arena.

How about labor cost?  Adding the CiES after the JPI install?

[Marauder]

 
How about labor cost?  Adding the CiES after the JPI install?

Hard to say. I did a lot of the physical work with the IA signing off. Most of the time was spent removing and reinstalling interior stuff and a bunch of time running wires.


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[kortopates]

Question: for the standard two tank design (75 total) in a M20K are there 4 CEIS senders?  Two per tank?
I had Monroy Long Range tanks in my last 231 with only the factory mechanical senders to analog gauges but had a fuel totalizer.

Yes, since you’ll need to replace all 4 OEM resistive senders with CIES senders. I am using the CIES with Monroy long range tanks in my 252.


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[kortopates]

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but my routine is to land on fullest. That means when I preflight I'm still on fullest. So it's gascolator, switch, gascolator, switch, preflight, start, switch, taxi, switch, run-up, fly. Taxi plus maybe fiddling with radios takes at least a minute, so I've verified fuel feed from both tanks on the ground and I'm starting on the fullest and doing run-up and takeoff on the fullest without a switch in between.


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After the gascolator draining of both I’ll leave it on the lowest and startup on the lowest tank and then taxi to the run up area, then switch to the fullest for run up and takeoff. Both tanks get exercised for a number of minutes that way. My base is a busy class D field under Bravo so most startups to departure times run no less than 20 min and often more with IMC conditions.


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[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Yes, since you’ll need to replace all 4 OEM resistive senders with CIES senders. I am using the CIES with Monroy long range tanks in my 252.


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Scott graciously donated a set of CIES senders to the Mooney Summit V which our own @Bob_Belville won. Scott,  @CIES thanks so much for your kind donation! 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Scott graciously donated a set of CIES senders to the Mooney Summit V which our own @Bob_Belville won. Scott,  @CIES thanks so much for your kind donation! 

Yes. And the CiES were an easy swap out which I did while adding the bladder 64 gallon capacity. 

I've flown only one hour long test flight after that work before pulling the cowl to ship to @Sabremech. Hopefully in a week or so I'll be making pireps on all my new toys.

[HRM]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:10 AM, kortopates said:

...fuel starvation accident involving an M20E.

Shortly after getting let loose for solo flight with The Mistress I decided to fly over to Liberty (TX, T78) to get some of their cheap, self-service Avgas. So I'm approaching the airport and the engine begins to cough. I panic. You know how people say that just before you die your life passes in front of you? Well, as I tried to figure out what was wrong I remembered reading an AOPA article a few days before where they explained that the FAA had determined that most accidents were caused by pilot error. Of the pilot error accidents, the number one error was fuel management! I looked down and saw that the fuel selector was pointing to what was now a near empty tank. Seriously, why fly to Liberty with full tanks? Anyway, I reached down and switched and the engine literally roared backed to life. The rest of the trip was uneventful excepting the chill from my soaked shirt.

Thank gawd my luck bucket was as full as it was at the time. I take fuel management very, very seriously and all components that affect it now.

[jetdriven]

How much gas was in the other tank

[Piloto]

One nice thing about later Mooneys (M20J & on) is the low fuel warning indication. If you are fat and old get a Mooney with the centered fuel selector. It is hard to reach the old fuel selector location in the pilot footwell. 

José

 

[aviatoreb]

Im late to the party - but two thoughts.

-I check gascolator before engine run-up - drip for 3 seconds on one tank selector position.  Then drip on the other tank position for 3 seconds. I always figured it was part of helping to chase contaminants, bubbles, and a partial check on continuity of the lines that you can draw from tanks.  BUT - one time I did this check a number of years ago, the gascilator did not close all the way as was apparent during proceeding with the rest of the pre-flight - it was just continuous dropping fluid as a stream out the bottom of the gascilator on the bottom of the airplane!  It was easy to stop I went back in and pulled the gascilator up and let it drop down again - which stopped it.  But think if that happened before a flight - I would have been draining my tank from the bottom of the airplane in flight.  Turns out I needed a new rubber gasket installed in the gsscilator assembly.  Anyway now the procedure I do for gascilator is check it early in my preflight so that some of my walk around allows me to sight see that I am not streaming fluid from the bottom of the plane but instead I see just a few drops below that spot on the tarmac.

-folks who run their tanks bone dry before switching, to the point that the engine coughs wanting to be starved, using every last droplet of available fuel in a tank, as a regular procedure - do you have any concern that one day the fuel selector may prevent you from making a tank switch just as the engine is starved?

One advantage of being tall, is I can reach the fuel selector without the pvc pipe-tool.

[jetdriven]

I never run one tank dry unless I am going to land with less than 10 gallons total and Ive already switched tanks during that flight.  For example, depart full. Run on LH tank 1 hour. RH 1 hour. then run left another 45 mins, which leaves 12 gallons in that tank. then run right empty., which takes 1.7 hours. I may joggle  this schedule somewhat to time it to run the RH tank empty near top of descent. If tank isnt dry at TOD, switch anyway there isnt much left.  Top of descent, 12 gallons good in one tank, 15 minutes left to fly. 

If landing with more fuel, dont run RH so low, but always land with 10 gallons in the selected tank.  You must plan the fuel imbalance at top of descent.

Edited February 24, 2018 by jetdriven

[kortopates]

13 hours ago, HRM said:

Shortly after getting let loose for solo flight with The Mistress I decided to fly over to Liberty (TX, T78) to get some of their cheap, self-service Avgas. So I'm approaching the airport and the engine begins to cough. I panic. You know how people say that just before you die your life passes in front of you? Well, as I tried to figure out what was wrong I remembered reading an AOPA article a few days before where they explained that the FAA had determined that most accidents were caused by pilot error. Of the pilot error accidents, the number one error was fuel management! I looked down and saw that the fuel selector was pointing to what was now a near empty tank. Seriously, why fly to Liberty with full tanks? Anyway, I reached down and switched and the engine literally roared backed to life. The rest of the trip was uneventful excepting the chill from my soaked shirt.

Thank gawd my luck bucket was as full as it was at the time. I take fuel management very, very seriously and all components that affect it now.

At a MAPA PPP, I spoke with a pilot that experienced the exact same thing. Although he may not have been approaching the airport, the key thing was his altitude was too low to give him any time to keep flying the plane to an off field landing. Although he didn't have luck about is tank running dry at low altitude, at least he had some about the location since he was able to put it down without getting injured, collect on the insurance and fly another day. And that's the most important thing! But it happens a lot.

We had a very new Cirrus SR22 go down right after takeoff at only 500' agl. This became a fatal because the plane came straight down on its nose. The engine quit in what appeared to be a very steep climb and the Ads-B position data makes it look like it climbed till literally fell out of the sky - the pilot never pushed the nose over to maintain glide speed. Although we have no idea why yet, one of the common possibilities being talked about of course is fuel starvation. All we really know to support that is that the first responders remarks that there was very little fuel to clean up at the site. 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Im late to the party - but two thoughts.

-I check gascolator before engine run-up - drip for 3 seconds on one tank selector position.  Then drip on the other tank position for 3 seconds. I always figured it was part of helping to chase contaminants, bubbles, and a partial check on continuity of the lines that you can draw from tanks.  BUT - one time I did this check a number of years ago, the gascilator did not close all the way as was apparent during proceeding with the rest of the pre-flight - it was just continuous dropping fluid as a stream out the bottom of the gascilator on the bottom of the airplane!  It was easy to stop I went back in and pulled the gascilator up and let it drop down again - which stopped it.  But think if that happened before a flight - I would have been draining my tank from the bottom of the airplane in flight.  Turns out I needed a new rubber gasket installed in the gsscilator assembly.  Anyway now the procedure I do for gascilator is check it early in my preflight so that some of my walk around allows me to sight see that I am not streaming fluid from the bottom of the plane but instead I see just a few drops below that spot on the tarmac.

-folks who run their tanks bone dry before switching, to the point that the engine coughs wanting to be starved, using every last droplet of available fuel in a tank, as a regular procedure - do you have any concern that one day the fuel selector may prevent you from making a tank switch just as the engine is starved?

One advantage of being tall, is I can reach the fuel selector without the pvc pipe-tool.

Those gascolator o-rings should be replaced every annual when they are pulled for inspection, but its seems that doesn't always happen.

I didn't think any of the K's came with out the fuel selector not being in the center, making it easily reachable by all pilots. The problem requiring the PVC tool was for the vintage Mooneys where it was placed in front of the pilot seat along with the gascolator drain ring and if the pilot flies with his seat forward the first required step is move the seat back and then use the PVC tool to reach it. With the fuel selector positioned in front of the trim wheel this issue is eliminated entirely. Its a shame Mooney wasn't able to do this much earlier. 

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Those gascolator o-rings should be replaced every annual when they are pulled for inspection, but its seems that doesn't always happen.

I didn't think any of the K's came with out the fuel selector not being in the center, making it easily reachable by all pilots. The problem requiring the PVC tool was for the vintage Mooneys where it was placed in front of the pilot seat along with the gascolator drain ring and if the pilot flies with his seat forward the first required step is move the seat back and then use the PVC tool to reach it. With the fuel selector positioned in front of the trim wheel this issue is eliminated entirely. Its a shame Mooney wasn't able to do this much earlier. 

Right - that gasket was not being changed early on in my ownership as I was using the local guy....I have corrected that.  That and many other mooney-specific issues can be either costly, dangerous, or both if overlooked.

Oh - I read about the pvc pipe thing and I assumed it was a height of pilot thing.

[Marauder]

59 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Oh - I read about the pvc pipe thing and I assumed it was a height of pilot thing.

Nope. It's either the height of the belly or the loss of flexibility thing. Dr. Bill made mine for me.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Those gascolator o-rings should be replaced every annual when they are pulled for inspection, but its seems that doesn't always happen.

I didn't think any of the K's came with out the fuel selector not being in the center, making it easily reachable by all pilots. The problem requiring the PVC tool was for the vintage Mooneys where it was placed in front of the pilot seat along with the gascolator drain ring and if the pilot flies with his seat forward the first required step is move the seat back and then use the PVC tool to reach it. With the fuel selector positioned in front of the trim wheel this issue is eliminated entirely. Its a shame Mooney wasn't able to do this much earlier. 

I fly with my seat in the middle of three notches, and lean down and switch tanks without moving the seat or using tools. Not sure how well that would work in the far forward position. Isn't that what rudder pedal extensions are for?

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, Hank said:

I fly with my seat in the middle of three notches, and lean down and switch tanks without moving the seat or using tools. Not sure how well that would work in the far forward position. Isn't that what rudder pedal extensions are for?

I fly with mine in the far back hole, and in fact I had an extra hole added for more leg length.  Too bad for the fictional guy behind me.

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

-folks who run their tanks bone dry before switching, to the point that the engine coughs wanting to be starved, using every last droplet of available fuel in a tank, as a regular procedure - do you have any concern that one day the fuel selector may prevent you from making a tank switch just as the engine is starved?

I'm one who regularly runs a tank dry... or about once a month or so. But my fuel selector is smooth and has never given any indication of trouble. So I don't expect it to just quit moving one day. I would expect it would get sticky or difficult to move in which case it would get serviced before running any tanks dry.  I also only ever run a tank dry at altitude which for me is almost always above 10K ft. which gives me options.

I use a very similar system as @jetdriven. But I do it based on gallons used. For example I might take off on the left tank and burn 15 gal leaving 20. Then switch to the right tank and run it all the way dry. Finally switch back to the left where I still have 20 gal and plan to land with at least 10 still in the tank.

If I've reached my top of decent and am ready to start down but the right tank isn't quite empty, I'd probably switch anyway.  I don't like to be running a tank dry when I'm doing anything other than straight and level.

[jetdriven]

I use gallons too, to the gallon. and the truck fills it up the exactly what i thought it will take but now my FF meter is broken. Time for more boxes fro Aircraft Spruce.

Edited February 24, 2018 by jetdriven

[aviatoreb]

Right - but that's not the point if you gallons or time.  The point is, what if it gets stuck when you want to switch just at the moment your engine is coughing having used the last droplet on the first tank.

I am just asking as it is a creepy thought, and yes I have done the same.  Mine is also well maintained and smooth.

[jetdriven]

Like @gsxrpilot I dont worry about a suddenly jamming fuel selector when its been used several times in the current flight and thousands of times in the last 7 years.

[gsxrpilot]

45 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Right - but that's not the point if you gallons or time.  The point is, what if it gets stuck when you want to switch just at the moment your engine is coughing having used the last droplet on the first tank.

I am just asking as it is a creepy thought, and yes I have done the same.  Mine is also well maintained and smooth.

I believe it's a matter of which is more likely to happen? 

1. Running out of fuel because the pilot mis-calculate, or didn't pay attention to fuel, or some other fuel mis-management issue.
2. The fuel selector decides to jam when it's been working perfectly all along.

I think it's pretty obvious that the first situation happens much more often than the second. In fact I've never seen an accident report on the second scenario, but we see them all the time on the first.

So the options become...

1. Ensure you always have plenty of fuel by never letting either tank get below 10 gal. So tanker around at least 20 gal at all times.
2. Make your best guess based on calculations in a POH that were made 30 to 50 years and many maintenance cycles before.
3. Occasionally run a tank dry to verify an accurate calculation or instrumentation of available fuel and unusable fuel in each tank.

For me #3 is by far the best option to ensure I never experience #1 on the first list.

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I believe it's a matter of which is more likely to happen? 

1. Running out of fuel because the pilot mis-calculate, or didn't pay attention to fuel, or some other fuel mis-management issue.
2. The fuel selector decides to jam when it's been working perfectly all along.

I think it's pretty obvious that the first situation happens much more often than the second. In fact I've never seen an accident report on the second scenario, but we see them all the time on the first.

So the options become...

1. Ensure you always have plenty of fuel by never letting either tank get below 10 gal. So tanker around at least 20 gal at all times.
2. Make your best guess based on calculations in a POH that were made 30 to 50 years and many maintenance cycles before.
3. Occasionally run a tank dry to verify an accurate calculation or instrumentation of available fuel and unusable fuel in each tank.

For me #3 is by far the best option to ensure I never experience #1 on the first list.

I agree completely.  I am just expressing it is kind of creepy to think about such an event - and as I said, I too when pushing maximum range have used the well accepted practice of running one tank dry so all remaining fuel is well know and in one place.