panel upgrade: range of effort

[FBV]

I'm embarking on upgrading my panel in my m20E. I torn between a couple of option that I want your feedback on.

 

Option 1: Just doing an overlay metal panel on the right side, keep the instrument stack structure that has many excess holes in it and new vertical non-bent panel on the left, yet keep the sub-panel for the throttle, mixture, prop, heat, boost, vent on the lower middle and lower left.

Example:

 

Option 2:  While putting in all new GPS & radios in the center stack, build a new panel that replaces the base panel on the left side. The throttle, prop, & mixture faceplate are also encompassed. This will involve removing those cables at the engine, pulling through the firewall, and re-inserting through the hole in the new panel. (a bigger job, but can be done in 3 hours). The right side would extend down further. All the audio jacks, electrical switches, heat, vent, boost, parking break would all penetrate the new panel. Would these all need to be removed from the firewall also? If so, how big of a job is that?

Example:

 

 

So my question is, how many more hours is the "full monte" (option 2). I ask because you only do this once and want to take some pride in it. My layout would also work better with option 2 as it provide a small bit of extra room. Confident in my abilities in this area, just curious about the time investment. 

 

Thank you!

Edited December 11, 2017 by FBV

[carusoam]

A half Monte, costs just about as the full monte...

In trying to go one piece at a time there can be a lot of removal and putting things back....

This can lead to a lot of waiting. Years go by....

Technology changes, FAA mandates arise, your update list gets longer...

Waas, 2020 ADSB, digital engine instruments, 406ELT, etc... Or is that my list getting longer...

Best regards,

-a-

[FBV]

Thanks for your response, I'll be doing both halves of the panel simultaneously. I'll also be doing the work myself, which I'm comfortable with. Just curious on the time investment of the two. Basically, which cables need to be pulled from in front of the firewall, and which can you just remove the knobs at the panel and re-install into the next panel??

Right now, my assumptions for option 2 are:

Throttle, mixture, prop....remove from firewall forward and completely re-rig

heat, vent, boost, brake.... completely remove and re-rig.

Can anybody confirm that for me? How much effort is that?

 

thank you

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by FBV

[Eric W. Gray]

Well, I'll jump in here with MORE than a "full monty" option, but it won't be available for several months (at best) and will certainly NOT be a DIY project. 

I am intimately involved with the "Dynon Certified" project and am currently working on the M20C, E, F, G prototype for earlier Mooneys, using a 1965 M20C aircraft.

This will be a complete makeover (with possibly some surviving avionics) and cost less-than-half of a similar project using new Garmin equipment.

This ambitious Dynon project was announced at OSH 2017, but keep in mind we are still in the development stages for STC approvals (Mooney and other aircraft) and we have no projected availability dates as yet... even though the FAA is being very cooperative.

These installations will need to be accomplished at "Dynon Certified" facilities, being established across the USA, and will be carefully monitored for quality control.

I've included three preliminary examples, for the Mooney M20C panel, featuring our flagship SkyView HDX displays.  Please excuse the crude resolution of these .jpg files. Our engineering file format is not compatible for uploading here. 

These examples include full IFR capability, dual ADAHRS redundancy, remote compasses, Mode S transponder with ADS-B In/Out and a full-featured autopilot with GS coupling. With our STC approvals, we should be able to accommodate most of your requested configurations.

Whew... that's enough for now... stay tuned.

[MIm20c]

Thank you for posting Mr Grey. 

Still rocking the ADF in all three mock-ups?

I thought the 10a backup unit was required for certification?  Not necessarily with dual skyview units?

Keep up the good work and please keep us updated and at the top of the stc list. 

[Eric W. Gray]

Just now, MIm20c said:

Thank you for posting Mr Grey. 

Still rocking the ADF in all three mock-ups?

I thought the 10a backup unit was required for certification?  Not necessarily with dual skyview units?

Keep up the good work and please keep us updated and at the top of the stc list. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  Yes, we are showing the KR-86 ADF and KN-64 DME units just to show that we can still accommodate folks who want to retain them, and there is still panel space. As for backups, the SkyView systems have dual ADAHRS (electronic gyro and heading platforms) with multiple backup batteries so even all-electric aircraft should qualify. The prototype 1965 M20C will have it's vacuum pump REMOVED... so, alas, we'll have to install a fixed entry step, like the later Mooneys !!  No great speed loss.
Stay tuned... this is exciting.

[FBV]

I appreciate the excitement here and the cool things that Dynon is working on. Such a sexy set of pictures will quickly hijack this thread into “what’s coming this summer”. To get back to the question, does anybody out there have experience with a panel update that involves removing hardware cables to pass through the sub panel? Do they have to be completely pulled out and re-threaded through the firewall? Or can the knobs and flanges be removed and reassembled into a new panel from the cockpit side?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marauder]

I appreciate the excitement here and the cool things that Dynon is working on. Such a sexy set of pictures will quickly hijack this thread into “what’s coming this summer”. To get back to the question, does anybody out there have experience with a panel update that involves removing hardware cables to pass through the sub panel? Do they have to be completely pulled out and re-threaded through the firewall? Or can the knobs and flanges be removed and reassembled into a new panel from the cockpit side?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

If someone doesn’t come along with an answer, I would check with some of the Mooney Service Centers to see if any of them have done this move. My ram and cowl flaps were removed to allow them to be placed in the new panel on the right side of my plane. They remained in the same location. I think once you attempt to move something to a new location, this may require some sign offs.

 

 

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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Eric.

I am looking forward to hearing more of where your project is going.

One MSer here may have an answer for your vacuum free, yet fully functioning step.

Might be able to work a trade on some STC’d Technologies....  

Now for some additional info... Have you checked to see if there is enough room behind the panel to allow the ADF to fit there in your ‘65M20C? There are some structural steel tubes back there, and the ADF box is pretty long...

Best regards,

-a-

[Eric W. Gray]

Yes, the KR-86 ADF will fit where located. As you descend the center stack, each unit becomes deeper, i.e.  the PMA6000  Audio Panel at the top is the shallowest and the KN-64 DME on the bottom is the deepest.

I'll be starting a Dynon Certified thread before too long as we know more. Thanks for asking.

-Eric

[Yetti]

If you are just redoing things and not doing wiring of say an audio panel, I would say 40 hours.   why not do the modular panel of the later F/J variety?

[preinke]

I'll wait for the Dynon thread

 

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by preinke
premature - didnt read all

[Yetti]

On 12/11/2017 at 12:25 AM, FBV said:

 To get back to the question, does anybody out there have experience with a panel update that involves removing hardware cables to pass through the sub panel? Do they have to be completely pulled out and re-threaded through the firewall? Or can the knobs and flanges be removed and reassembled into a new panel from the cockpit side?

 

Not sure the terminology you are using.  Mine has the throttle quadrant.   There is a tube structure that is over the center of the wheel well.  There is a flat bar where the 3 cables attach as the mounting point. 

see them at the top of this pic.

Then there is the Flap Switch.

I would not put all the breakers on the left side.  Leave them on the right side, that is alot of rerouting of wires.

Leave room for other stuff.

You also have to think about the Cowl flaps and the Ram Air.  They are unscrewable from the front of the panel with set screws and the such.

[TheAv8r]

Reviving an old thread, but here with the same question and never saw @FBV's question get answered... 

Mainly, how much more work/effort/cost is it to leave the switches & engine cables where they are, vs. replacing with a flat 1-piece panel ala this picture: