Lessons learned

[bradp]

Maybe the graph should be a bunch of bounces as you go further to the right but with the confidence dips a little lower or a little higher depending.  

[N201MKTurbo]

For me the light went on after I faced death a few times in the plane. These situations are beyond the what If's and are the actual do or die situations. They will change the way you think about your flying decisions. When you first start flying you think your skills and equipment are capable of dealing with any situation and the only reasons planes go down are because of pilots doing stupid things and you know you are smarter than that. I'm sure the dead pilot thought the same way.

[N201MKTurbo]

As far as flying over the top of bad weather, An instrument rating isn't a panacea. I once flew at FL200 over an area where several airliners were reporting severe icing. At one point I was 50 miles from the edge of that weather. It was worse than flying VFR over the top. If anything happened that would cause me to descend I would have been toast. The icing layer was about 15000 feet thick with mountains below.

I was sure happy when the clouds broke up. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Edited November 24, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[Bartman]

This thread cause me to reflect in many different directions, just like the course of the discussion. Although I have expressed my opinion on topics of contention such as ROP- LOP TnG, and others, this is the first time I have responded to anyone in what can be perceived as negative. Of course I have made my mistakes including crossing the Appalachians on my way to Carolina Beach and flew thru a hanging wisp of a Cumulous due to the Cumulogranite being only a few hundred feet below me and although it was only 1-2 seconds it scared me.   I also called up KTRI one day and had to ask for SVFR when they called the field at 4 miles and I could not see the runway lights, but only weeks later I also landed in Asheville more than once and rented a car to drive 3 more hours home because I recalled those previous experiences and how they could have ended badly. Coincidentally those instances were between 150 and 250 hours. That fall and winter I took the advice that those with more experience than me had been telling me all along and finished the Instrument Rating. Since then I have scrubbed or delayed many flights due to weather, fatigue, medical issues, and yes mechanical issues, but thankfully I have not made any decisions either in the air or on the ground that I regret.

My response yesterday yesterday was hastily written as I was going out the door to see family for Thanksgiving dinner and I wrote it because I remembered the previous thread about engine oil consumption and saw a pattern. I offer my apologies because after reading it again today it sounded condescending and judgmental. We all make mistakes, but it's how we as pilots respond that counts. Putting it out there for all to read took guts and I look forward to reading many posts from @gitmo234 reporting the final resolution from training/decision making and mechanical standpoint. 

[gitmo234]

37 minutes ago, Bartman said:

This thread cause me to reflect in many different directions, just like the course of the discussion. Although I have expressed my opinion on topics of contention such as ROP- LOP TnG, and others, this is the first time I have responded to anyone in what can be perceived as negative. Of course I have made my mistakes including crossing the Appalachians on my way to Carolina Beach and flew thru a hanging wisp of a Cumulous due to the Cumulogranite being only a few hundred feet below me and although it was only 1-2 seconds it scared me.   I also called up KTRI one day and had to ask for SVFR when they called the field at 4 miles and I could not see the runway lights, but only weeks later I also landed in Asheville more than once and rented a car to drive 3 more hours home because I recalled those previous experiences and how they could have ended badly. Coincidentally those instances were between 150 and 250 hours. That fall and winter I took the advice that those with more experience than me had been telling me all along and finished the Instrument Rating. Since then I have scrubbed or delayed many flights due to weather, fatigue, medical issues, and yes mechanical issues, but thankfully I have not made any decisions either in the air or on the ground that I regret.

My response yesterday yesterday was hastily written as I was going out the door to see family for Thanksgiving dinner and I wrote it because I remembered the previous thread about engine oil consumption and saw a pattern. I offer my apologies because after reading it again today it sounded condescending and judgmental. We all make mistakes, but it's how we as pilots respond that counts. Putting it out there for all to read took guts and I look forward to reading many posts from @gitmo234 reporting the final resolution from training/decision making and mechanical standpoint. 

Well you’re in luck! Thanks for the kind words by the way.

something happened and it’s not good. Monday he’s going to wash it up and run it. Something connecting the baffles came off, which may have caused a cylinder to get hot. Two cylinders are very, very oily inside and one plug was basically black.

he said it was a miracle there wasn’t oil all over the outside because it managed to get everywhere inside. I saw the puddles.

he said it looks like it leaks everywhere but he can’t tell until he washes it and runs it. 

He said compressions were “fine” but it looks like a cylinder or two may be tapered and I’m getting blow by. 

Right now he put the scale of repairs somewhere between replace a cylinder or two up to consider an IRAN or overhaul. He also wants to run a crankcase pressure check.

also he started it up and it ran really shitty below 1500 rpm and had a distinct “miss” in cylinder. 

Warming up the checkbook now.

ill have a full diagnosis Monday or Tuesday and whatever we decide he can’t even begin work until the  week after

[carusoam]

Some things you may notice with blow-by...

the oil turns dark pretty quickly... it will smell burnt... because it has adsorbed the color and aroma of the exhaust....

If the blow by is enough to be pressurizing the case, the oil will be trying to leave through the vent hose... (find that hose and see an oil drop about to fall out of it...

Lately a lot of MSers have been using a dental camera available on Amazon to inspect the inside of the cylinders.

See if you mechanic has one of these.  The surface of the effected cylinder will probably be obvious.  It is possible a ring has been broken by something like really hot cylinder temps... one might be causing the other....

I don't recall talking about what a JPI would be showing... but if oil is messing up a lower spark plug... the JPI will be surely showing it.  Got some data? Or already posted?

 

No JPI or EI yet? We have some good ideas there too...

PP ideas that is... not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

5 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

a friend of mine told told me about a book called “The Danger Zone”.   I can’t remember who wrote it, but it basically goes into detail to explain this graph.  I think he said that statistics show that 150 hours to 350 hours TT pilots have the highest accident rate...     

You're thinking of "The Killing Zone" https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-Second-How-Pilots/dp/0071798404   It's excellent -  I read it right after my PPL checkride, and I'd recommend to all newish private pilots.  The book's  discussion of accident causes is built around the observation that the highest rate of mishaps per hour flown happen in the 50-350hr time frame for new pilots, after which they drop off considerably. These aggregate accident stats may be informative; however, I suspect they are poorly predictive of  behavior when referring to a particular individual. I think I might have subconsciously breathed a sigh of relief when I crossed the 350 hour mark last year.  Of course most of my really boneheaded mistakes have come in my subsequent 100 hours since then.

[gitmo234]

3 hours ago, Bartman said:

This thread cause me to reflect in many different directions, just like the course of the discussion. Although I have expressed my opinion on topics of contention such as ROP- LOP TnG, and others, this is the first time I have responded to anyone in what can be perceived as negative. Of course I have made my mistakes including crossing the Appalachians on my way to Carolina Beach and flew thru a hanging wisp of a Cumulous due to the Cumulogranite being only a few hundred feet below me and although it was only 1-2 seconds it scared me.   I also called up KTRI one day and had to ask for SVFR when they called the field at 4 miles and I could not see the runway lights, but only weeks later I also landed in Asheville more than once and rented a car to drive 3 more hours home because I recalled those previous experiences and how they could have ended badly. Coincidentally those instances were between 150 and 250 hours. That fall and winter I took the advice that those with more experience than me had been telling me all along and finished the Instrument Rating. Since then I have scrubbed or delayed many flights due to weather, fatigue, medical issues, and yes mechanical issues, but thankfully I have not made any decisions either in the air or on the ground that I regret.

My response yesterday yesterday was hastily written as I was going out the door to see family for Thanksgiving dinner and I wrote it because I remembered the previous thread about engine oil consumption and saw a pattern. I offer my apologies because after reading it again today it sounded condescending and judgmental. We all make mistakes, but it's how we as pilots respond that counts. Putting it out there for all to read took guts and I look forward to reading many posts from @gitmo234 reporting the final resolution from training/decision making and mechanical standpoint. 

Re-reading this, I had missed the part about the previous thread, and I had completely forgotten I had made that post. A lot of “dots” that individually don’t seem like much, but together point to a problem slowly building. With as much as I have going on I forgot a lot of things (quite literally almost need a second secretary just to track my meetings and schedules only). Since I’m looking at major maintenance, I think I may start keeping more than a log, but a bit of a journal of “things". Notes about flights, ranging from oil level to anything noticed in flight.

Edited November 24, 2017 by gitmo234

[lamont337]

3 hours ago, gitmo234 said:

Since I’m looking at major maintenance, I think I may start keeping more than a log, but a bit of a journal of “things". Notes about flights, ranging from oil level to anything noticed in flight.

The spiral notebook on my knee board fills this role. Date, tach, airport info, comm freqs, etc. As it is intended to be a permanent record, I also use it to record my VOR receiver checks and maintenance items such as oil added. Very handy to be able to go back and review. 

[Bart Chilcott]

Glad to hear that your ordeal had a good outcome and that you and your wife are safe.  I understand your feeling about using flight following but I would encourage you to continue to use it as often as you can.  I currently fly a little over 100 hours per year.  Eighty Five percent of my flights are cross country and 100% of those are with flight following.  I make it a personal rule that if I'm flying over 100 NM, I get in the system.  I too have encountered ATC either forgetting me or handing me off incorrectly.  Although I've found their errors are more the exception than the rule, I've learned that its my responsibility to insure that I'm not forgotten and with the correct center and on the correct frequency.  For example, if I know I'm close to a hand off or over due for one and have not heard from ATC, I give them a call and simply say  "______ center, how do you hear?"  Typically they respond with, "I hear you just fine" and then (conveniently) they give me instructions for my next hand off.  My point is, I think we have to take an active role in making sure we are handed off correctly.  After all, its a service that is based on work load and certainly subject to human error.   The service is not perfect but very close to it and I wouldn't fly cross country without it.  Good luck with your engine woes.  I'm currently burning about one quart every six hours as well and suspect I have one cylinder that either has a step or is tapered. 

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, Whiskey Charlie said:

Glad to hear that your ordeal had a good outcome and that you and your wife are safe.  I understand your feeling about using flight following but I would encourage you to continue to use it as often as you can.  I currently fly a little over 100 hours per year.  Eighty Five percent of my flights are cross country and 100% of those are with flight following.  I make it a personal rule that if I'm flying over 100 NM, I get in the system.  I too have encountered ATC either forgetting me or handing me off incorrectly.  Although I've found their errors are more the exception than the rule, I've learned that its my responsibility to insure that I'm not forgotten and with the correct center and on the correct frequency.  For example, if I know I'm close to a hand off or over due for one and have not heard from ATC, I give them a call and simply say  "______ center, how do you hear?"  Typically they respond with, "I hear you just fine" and then (conveniently) they give me instructions for my next hand off.  My point is, I think we have to take an active role in making sure we are handed off correctly.  After all, its a service that is based on work load and certainly subject to human error.   The service is not perfect but very close to it and I wouldn't fly cross country without it.  Good luck with your engine woes.  I'm currently burning about one quart every six hours as well and suspect I have one cylinder that either has a step or is tapered. 

I'll second the call for flight following. I have been steered away from other traffic on a number of occasions and I'm grateful for it every time. There are also many times that I have had traffic called out to me, I can see it on my tablet, but I can't find it in the sky. It's amazing how hard it is to see a small plane depending on the color of the plane and the background behind it. Plus it helps everyone in the sky when there are fewer, "type unknown, altitude unverified" planes out there. 

I've been handed off wrong before. I've also been handed off, tried to check in without getting an answer, gone back to the previous frequency to ensure I had the correct one, then gone back and finally got a reply back. I've also been told to contact a different controller when trying to get flight following on more than one occasion. There are a number of different frequencies in the small area near my home airport and if I haven't picked it up early enough in my flight I may find myself in a different controllers neighborhood. I have always felt it was no big deal when they tell me "Contact SoCal on xxxx" in response to my request.

[gitmo234]

Heading home today. 1000 miles by road. Should be home around 9pm EST. My dad let me take his mustang vs renting, while I await how bad the news is (but we’re thinking of saying screw it and just opting for an overhaul since the odds of it being small are also small). It’s parked at a field that does overhauls and my impression of the mechanic based on his level of detail and attitude is that he’s probably awesome.

heres my ride for the next 12+

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Glad to hear that your ordeal had a good outcome and that you and your wife are safe.  I understand your feeling about using flight following but I would encourage you to continue to use it as often as you can.  I currently fly a little over 100 hours per year.  Eighty Five percent of my flights are cross country and 100% of those are with flight following.  I make it a personal rule that if I'm flying over 100 NM, I get in the system.  I too have encountered ATC either forgetting me or handing me off incorrectly.  Although I've found their errors are more the exception than the rule, I've learned that its my responsibility to insure that I'm not forgotten and with the correct center and on the correct frequency.  For example, if I know I'm close to a hand off or over due for one and have not heard from ATC, I give them a call and simply say  "______ center, how do you hear?"  Typically they respond with, "I hear you just fine" and then (conveniently) they give me instructions for my next hand off.  My point is, I think we have to take an active role in making sure we are handed off correctly.  After all, its a service that is based on work load and certainly subject to human error.   The service is not perfect but very close to it and I wouldn't fly cross country without it.  Good luck with your engine woes.  I'm currently burning about one quart every six hours as well and suspect I have one cylinder that either has a step or is tapered. 

My frustration as a vfr pilot was that I was always dropped, almost never provided with entrance into the Bravo, and typical left in 360 turns while IFR guys were given first priority all the way through. After getting he IFR ticket, I'm never dropped, always alerted with traffic and airspace is always open to me. In addition to the weather approaches and better decision making skills. If you fly any amount of cross country, listen to the old timers and get the IR. You seriously won't regret it. It'll also give you a break in your insurance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you’re facing overhaul rather than a cylinder or two:

When my E model informed me it was time I opted to swap out the old engine for a factory overhaul.  That way I got an engine updated to current SB level, and I ordered an alternator version to replace the old generator.

AirPower site says $28,807 for a Lycoming factory overhauled IO360A1A after credit for your rebuildable core.  Since yours is running I assume it qualifies for that credit.  

Penn Yan is located near you in Pennsylvania & they have some overhauled IO-360A1A engines in stock, they claim.

It should be much faster to swap an engine than to overhaul your old one.  

Several good choices but none of them cheap.  

Nice loaner car, BTW.  

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Jerry 5TJ

[1964-M20E]

32 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

Heading home today. 1000 miles by road. Should be home around 9pm EST. My dad let me take his mustang vs renting, while I await how bad the news is (but we’re thinking of saying screw it and just opting for an overhaul since the odds of it being small are also small). It’s parked at a field that does overhauls and my impression of the mechanic based on his level of detail and attitude is that he’s probably awesome.

heres my ride for the next 12+

 

Sweet just don't try to achieve the same GS as you would in the Mooney.

 

 

[KLRDMD]

54 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

. . .  we’re thinking of saying screw it and just opting for an overhaul since the odds of it being small are also small. It’s parked at a field that does overhauls and my impression of the mechanic based on his level of detail and attitude is that he’s probably awesome.

If I were facing an overhaul, I would have the engine removed and sent off to Jewell for the work, then have it re-installed. You'll have to have the accessories sent off separately for overhaul for about $5,000. My shop has used Jewell for many years, many engines and have nothing but excellent things to say. And they are priced very, VERY well. $12,000 for a Lycoming IO-360 engine.

http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm

[KLRDMD]

8 hours ago, Whiskey Charlie said:

I too have encountered ATC either forgetting me or handing me off incorrectly.  Although I've found their errors are more the exception than the rule, I've learned that its my responsibility to insure that I'm not forgotten and with the correct center and on the correct frequency.  For example, if I know I'm close to a hand off or over due for one and have not heard from ATC, I give them a call and simply say  "______ center, how do you hear?"  Typically they respond with, "I hear you just fine" and then (conveniently) they give me instructions for my next hand off.  My point is, I think we have to take an active role in making sure we are handed off correctly.  After all, its a service that is based on work load and certainly subject to human error.   The service is not perfect but very close to it and I wouldn't fly cross country without it.

Here's a hint as to when to expect a handoff. The frequencies and borders of the various "Centers" are on IFR low enroute charts. Even if you aren't instruments rated, download those charts anyway just for this purpose. The borders are the blue/purple squiggly lines as shown on the attachment. Here you can see where you should be expected to be turned over to Denver Center, Albuquerque Center, LA Center. Additionally, in the blue/purple squiggly boxes you can see the actual frequency to expect.

Going eastbound on the western part of the attachment (northwest Arizona) you'll see that you'll be with LA Center on 124.85. When crossing into ABQ Center's airspace near Prescott, AZ you'll be on 127.675. If you were to make a turn to the north, you'll get into Denver Center's airspace and you'll be on 127.55.

[Bart Chilcott]

2 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Here's a hint as to when to expect a handoff. The frequencies and borders of the various "Centers" are on IFR low enroute charts. Even if you aren't instruments rated, download those charts anyway just for this purpose. The borders are the blue/purple squiggly lines as shown on the attachment. Here you can see where you should be expected to be turned over to Denver Center, Albuquerque Center, LA Center. Additionally, in the blue/purple squiggly boxes you can see the actual frequency to expect.

Going eastbound on the western part of the attachment (northwest Arizona) you'll see that you'll be with LA Center on 124.85. When crossing into ABQ Center's airspace near Prescott, AZ you'll be on 127.675. If you were to make a turn to the north, you'll get into Denver Center's airspace and you'll be on 127.55.

Yes, I’m aware of this.  I use it to prompt ATC if I haven’t heard from them for a hand off.  I bring up IFR low charts on my MFD.  My point was to encourage Gitmo to proactively prompt ATC if he hasn’t heard from them. 

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Whiskey Charlie said:

Yes, I’m aware of this.  I use it to prompt ATC if I haven’t heard from them for a hand off.  I bring up IFR low charts on my MFD.  My point was to encourage Gitmo to proactively prompt ATC if he hasn’t heard from them. 

I'm sure some are aware of this but I would imagine many are not, especially those not instrument rated. This was more a general purpose post than one directed to an individual. I just used your post as an intro.

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

If you’re facing overhaul rather than a cylinder or two:

Why was Jerry the only one to mention this? As I have written here several times, in September 2016 I found myself with low oil pressure and also landed with one quart. My A&P stated that Lycoming required a tear-down when operating with 2 quarts or less  OR when oil pressure drops below 55psi. You stated that you saw 25psi.

Before shipping our engine off for the tear-down, we sent off an oil sample for analysis and the results were dreadful. The term "making metal" would be a gross understatement. I can't believe you simply refilled and took off as if nothing happened.

[flyboy0681]

4 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Even without looking it up, it is hard to believe that the second half of your A&P’s assertion is correct since the bottom of the yellow range on my J’s oil pressure gage is unmarked but is around 30 psi, and the green range goes all the way down to 60 psi.  Still, though, the OP may have exceeded that limit. 

I believe the number was derived from Lycoming Service Bulletin 399 (not 399A).

[flyboy0681]

6 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

There are a lot of internet references to 25 psi being the bottom of the range.  I’m satisfied enough not to look any further. 

Sufficed to say, landing with one quart was enough to have fried the engine.

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Perhaps. One quart on the dipstick immediately after landing could be two quarts or more a day or two later.  I use Camguard and it takes several days to get an accurate oil level reading.  Probably, but maybe not. 

1.25 quarts is what was drained before tearing open the filter.

Regarding the 25psi lower limit, sounds reasonable during low RPM, but 2,600?

[gitmo234]

It’s my turn to ride for a few hours. 

My oil pressure was at 25 which is the yellow arc. As far what an A&P said, I had one tell me that a quart an hour burn, give or take, is fine. So it’s a matter of who you ask as to how accurate the answer is, also, this engine has been looked at several times. The day of departure it was run up by an A&P and checked over because the electronic fuel pump was replaced, amongst other things.

Not that I’m in the business of explaining my actions to the superior,  but that was part of the reason for the rushed oil check. He had just put the cowlings back on.

landing with low oil, i defaulted to “shit I didn’t check good enough, crap.”  Which still may or may not be true. I added oil and ran it up, stopped and looked for leaks and saw none. Took off and kept an eye on oil pressure and it was fine. Oil level was fine at the next stop as well. 

Final stop was at night so I put it away and called an A&P the next day. He found things that wouldn’t have been found otherwise, and had to show me a couple things with a dental mirror. 

 

So so to the other points: flight following. The same stuff happened on this flight, handed off wrong and no response from STL approach. The difference now it was easier to handle. As a freshly minted PPL being handed off wrong or forgotten about was a big deal. A “oh shit WTF do I do now” panic moment almost. When it happened this time it was no big deal, I just switched back or looked up possible frequencies. I’m gonna stick with it more often.

engine: I’m thinking overhaul for a few reasons. First, the last overhaul was in 1995. Since then all but cylinder 4 has been replaced at different times. Currently the A&P said there is oil in 2 cylinder and a plug was really black in a third. He also said it’s developed a bit of a skip/misfire and seems to run “shitty” below 1200 rpm. Seemed fine to me and never had those issues before. Most importantly though is personal baselining. I’ll know the engine and I’ll know when something changes. So it’s actually in Missouri now, so I may shop it off to jewel. Depending on quote and diagnosis. The A&P showed me a few things others have missed that indicated it might be time and other have chased oil leaks in the past.

[gitmo234]

To settle the debate, here’s a pic from the flight, about 2 hours after stopping to add oil.