Insurance

[mike_elliott]

On 11/18/2017 at 1:36 PM, exM20K said:

Finding a qualified M20TN CFI from whom to get that dual is not easy.

There are a couple on Mooney Space regularly

 

[Bob_Belville]

59 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

There are a couple on Mooney Space regularly

 

Uh huh... anyone near Tarpon Springs FL?

[Daniel VanBuskirk]

On 11/18/2017 at 8:02 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I have a suggestion. Buy a nice Bravo, (which is within 10-15 knots of an Acclaim) for 175K-200K and build up some retractable time. The hull value will be less so you'll pay about half the insurance premiums and you will go through less cylinders on the Lycoming than the Continental engines. No starter adaptor to deal with on the Lycomings either. Your avionics options are wide open on pre-G1000 Bravos and aren't tied to the type certificate.

Great suggestion.  I really like the lycoming engine and would do this but im really wanting the GFC-700 autopilot instead of the Stec.  If it weren't for that I would be all over the Bravo.

[Daniel VanBuskirk]

On 11/20/2017 at 2:07 PM, Bravoman said:

 Just out of curiosity,  are you being quoted on $1 million smooth liability policies or policies with liability sub limits? 

Yes sir

[Daniel VanBuskirk]

8 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Why not take a loot at possibly a little less plane. Ive the cessna I fly is pretty similar to the dakota, as in it can carry stuff, its old, its, pretty slow ( a tad bit faster than the cessna), NA, and fixed gear. After taking a flight in an m20f, I noticed that things happen a lot faster. that was in a plane that honestly does maybe 25 knots faster. Going from a plane that does 130 knots, to an aircraft that can do 225 to 230knots cruise is a big leap in speed. Maybe consider something a tad bit slower, such as an Ovation, Eagle, 201, for NA, or if you really want a Turbo, a Bravo, 231, 252, or an encore. Most of the planes i just named, are already speed demons. All planes listed, except for the 201, will easily do over 180 knots at 8 to 12 thousand feet, and the turbos should come pretty close to 200, if not past it. The if the insurance price is scaring you, Maintenance on an acclaim isn't exactly cheap either. Top overhauls every thousand hours or less, High insurance, Major overhaul isn't cheap either, High annuals, high fuel flow (compared to an ovation or Eagle) and hangar (this is not an aircraft that deserves to sit on the ramp). For me and my family, the sweet spot we are looking for is the eagle, as it gets good fuel flow, the engine can actually get pretty close to the 2000tbo, from what I've seen on here, 13 to 14 GPH vs 22 to 23. also consider, will you be flying in the flight levels? I doubt in the dakota it made sense to go over 12,000 feet and wear oxygen. Are you going to actually fly above 14,000ft. if you're flying 8 to 12000 ft, the ovation or a missile is a better choice. I hate to be "that guy" but the acclaim is a lot of plane, probably getting pretty close to the piston lancairs. Does your mission truly require "all that plane".

Great points and no harm taken.  I appreciate any info.  I certainly thought of the Bravo but im really interested in the GFC-700 autopilot.  The Lycoming engine is very incising.  I started with looting at the Ovation3 but seems like everyone i talk to says go to the Acclaim. The speed and ability to climb over some weather is nice. The added expense is concerning.  The way i fly now is under 15K but figured that would change as plane does.  Hell when i first started flying I looked for the best Dakota I could find thinking it would be the first and only plane I would buy. I just got laughed at every conversation I had lol. Everyone said it is a drug, you will be looking for more avionics and speed as you grow.  They were right.  But I still go back and forth with the O3 and Acclaim. I figure I will be looking for the nicest 2008 or 09 O3 or Acclaim in the country.

[AndyFromCB]

9 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Why not take a loot at possibly a little less plane. Ive the cessna I fly is pretty similar to the dakota, as in it can carry stuff, its old, its, pretty slow ( a tad bit faster than the cessna), NA, and fixed gear. After taking a flight in an m20f, I noticed that things happen a lot faster. that was in a plane that honestly does maybe 25 knots faster. Going from a plane that does 130 knots, to an aircraft that can do 225 to 230knots cruise is a big leap in speed. Maybe consider something a tad bit slower, such as an Ovation, Eagle, 201, for NA, or if you really want a Turbo, a Bravo, 231, 252, or an encore. Most of the planes i just named, are already speed demons. All planes listed, except for the 201, will easily do over 180 knots at 8 to 12 thousand feet, and the turbos should come pretty close to 200, if not past it. The if the insurance price is scaring you, Maintenance on an acclaim isn't exactly cheap either. Top overhauls every thousand hours or less, High insurance, Major overhaul isn't cheap either, High annuals, high fuel flow (compared to an ovation or Eagle) and hangar (this is not an aircraft that deserves to sit on the ramp). For me and my family, the sweet spot we are looking for is the eagle, as it gets good fuel flow, the engine can actually get pretty close to the 2000tbo, from what I've seen on here, 13 to 14 GPH vs 22 to 23. also consider, will you be flying in the flight levels? I doubt in the dakota it made sense to go over 12,000 feet and wear oxygen. Are you going to actually fly above 14,000ft. if you're flying 8 to 12000 ft, the ovation or a missile is a better choice. I hate to be "that guy" but the acclaim is a lot of plane, probably getting pretty close to the piston lancairs. Does your mission truly require "all that plane".

I disagree . Cruise speed does not matter one bit, 100knots, 200knots, 300knots (don't know about 400, never piloted anything faster than 300). You're just sitting there. I don't see how an Acclaim gets close to piston Lancairs? In what sense? Cruise speed? Or being a death trap? It's no more a death trap than an Ovation or an Eagle. Nothing happens any faster where it matters, being take off or landing. All 3 use the same speeds. 75knots is not much faster than a Cessna 172 on final. Lancair IV is 95knots on final aircraft.

Maintenance costs will be pretty much identical and fuel flows can actually be a bit lower than Ovation for the same speed if you're willing to fly at or above 12,000. An Acclaim will happily do 180knots on 13gph at 12,000 vs 12gph in an Ovation (assuming the Ovation can actually hit that speed at 12,000 LOP). Go higher and it's actually more efficient. Maintenance costs will be fairly identical to an Ovation overall, maybe few dollars more per hour for turbo components overhaul, but if you run it LOP and cruise under 16gph, I don't see how you put any more wear on the cylinders than an Ovation.

Edited November 27, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[FoxMike]

I was going to stay out of this but I can't resist.  I have owned a Bravo for 14 yrs. and find it to be comparable to the Acclaim in most respects.  The salesman  says the Acclaim goes 240Kts but if you do that regularly you are going to top the engine about every 300hrs.  The Acclaim goes a little faster than a Bravo but not much at reasonable power settings.  If you have a need for a weather capable airplane and have the skills to manage the equipment either the Acclaim or Bravo will work equally well.  My Bravo has a KFC 150 and steam gauges.  Goes about 185Kts on 16 gallons an hours.  Equipped with FIKI, stormscope, and NEXRAD, I am comfortable in most weather.  Turbos help when you get into serious ice.  The cost of maintaining the airframe and all the avionics and other systems is mind boggling especially if you do not have use for the equipment.  If you have a need they are great airplanes but they keep you checking account at near minimum balance.  BTW my insurance this year for a smooth policy was $2400.

 

[exM20K]

5 hours ago, Daniel VanBuskirk said:

Great points and no harm taken.  I appreciate any info.  I certainly thought of the Bravo but im really interested in the GFC-700 autopilot.  The Lycoming engine is very incising.  I started with looting at the Ovation3 but seems like everyone i talk to says go to the Acclaim. The speed and ability to climb over some weather is nice. The added expense is concerning.  The way i fly now is under 15K but figured that would change as plane does.  Hell when i first started flying I looked for the best Dakota I could find thinking it would be the first and only plane I would buy. I just got laughed at every conversation I had lol. Everyone said it is a drug, you will be looking for more avionics and speed as you grow.  They were right.  But I still go back and forth with the O3 and Acclaim. I figure I will be looking for the nicest 2008 or 09 O3 or Acclaim in the country.

GFC700 and G1000/WAAS and FIKI are the reasons I bought an acclaim in stead of Bravo.  You're looking at it right - or at least the same as I did :-)

[Mooneymuscle56m]

You may have already found reasonable insurance.  I was in a similiar scenario last June.  I bought an non- waas Acclaim, I insured it for $360k with a $500 deductible  for $2600 a year with Falcon.  Falcon was very straight forward and great to deal with, but they didn’t start at $2600. I had to show similar time in type, thankfully I have some 231 and some Rocket time.  The Rocket is extremely nose heavy and I was able to get falcon to accept the rocket as like type.  An Acclaim is so much easier to fly than a rocket.  My Rocket buddy always flys with 60 lbs in back. 

If you haven’t made an Acclaim purchase yet, I strongly reccomend the Acclaim even if they screw you on insurance for a bit.  Richard Simile is in Chandler, AZ and is available for instruction and strongly encourage a few hours with him.  

Edited January 14, 2018 by Mooneymuscle56m

[M016576]

On 11/27/2017 at 10:30 AM, AndyFromCB said:

I disagree . Cruise speed does not matter one bit, 100knots, 200knots, 300knots (don't know about 400, never piloted anything faster than 300). You're just sitting there. I don't see how an Acclaim gets close to piston Lancairs? In what sense? Cruise speed? Or being a death trap? It's no more a death trap than an Ovation or an Eagle. Nothing happens any faster where it matters, being take off or landing. All 3 use the same speeds. 75knots is not much faster than a Cessna 172 on final. Lancair IV is 95knots on final aircraft.

Maintenance costs will be pretty much identical and fuel flows can actually be a bit lower than Ovation for the same speed if you're willing to fly at or above 12,000. An Acclaim will happily do 180knots on 13gph at 12,000 vs 12gph in an Ovation (assuming the Ovation can actually hit that speed at 12,000 LOP). Go higher and it's actually more efficient. Maintenance costs will be fairly identical to an Ovation overall, maybe few dollars more per hour for turbo components overhaul, but if you run it LOP and cruise under 16gph, I don't see how you put any more wear on the cylinders than an Ovation.

I had the same initial reaction when I read Niko’s post the first time- then I re-read it.  I think you guys are actually kind of saying the same thing.  I think Niko’s point was that if the OP isn’t going above 12K, he’d probably be better off with a little “less” of an airplane- ie an ovation or a missile (as a missile owner, I’d agree with that statement).  

I do agree with you though too- flying characteristics wise, they all fly pretty similarly, and at similar speeds: of course they’d have to- since they are certified airframes.  It’s all relative though- if you’re not used to flying 200 knots, it can seem pretty fast... whereas if your day job has you regularly climbing at 25000fpm and flying at 600kts... an acclaim, bravo, ovation and missile all feel equally slow!  Still fun though... and you can fit 4 people in a Mooney

[SAMFOX]

Late to the game here but I too just had to renew my insurance. Used Falcon as broker, they wrote me with Starr Aviation

Aircraft 1997 M20J

Last year: ATP, 3400 hours multi-engine turbine, retract, 2 hours in type ($1486)

This year: ATP, 3600 hours multi-engine turbine, retract, 50 hours in type ($1595)

Hours increased, aircraft systems/avionics remained same, time in type went up and so did the premium!!!

So when I received the quote broker mentioned that the increase was D2 increase in retract incidents last year so yes there does seem to be an emphasis on retracts with insurance companies.

You can see what they offer discounts for on the attachment, there are also other items that are not listed, things such as Autopilot w/altitude hold, you will just need to ask when you call

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/27/2017 at 8:12 AM, Daniel VanBuskirk said:

Great suggestion.  I really like the lycoming engine and would do this but im really wanting the GFC-700 autopilot instead of the Stec.  If it weren't for that I would be all over the Bravo.

There were only 20 Bravos with STEC autopilots.

M20M's built from 1989 - 1999 (Serial numbers 27-0001 to 27-0282) had the Bendix King 150 which is a good autopilot - many of them had the KAS297B Altitude pre-select. In 2000 they went to the King KFC225 Autopilot which is outstanding and has preselect built in. The only Bravos with the STEC autopilots would be the twenty GX Bravos that have the G1000 avionics (Serial numbers 27-0331to 27-0350).

The beauty of the pre-GX Bravos is that you are not tied to the G1000 avionics (they are part of the type certificate and can't be swapped out for anything else - although there may eventually be an upgrade path to the NXi G1000 ). As avionics keep getting more advanced you are free to do what you want.

[PaulM]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:12 AM, Daniel VanBuskirk said:

Great suggestion.  I really like the lycoming engine and would do this but im really wanting the GFC-700 autopilot instead of the Stec.  If it weren't for that I would be all over the Bravo.

I believe there is one (1) Bravo with the GFC-700... It was the factory development platform.. I saw it advertised 5 years ago...   technically there were a few Stec planes converted to GFC-700 at a ridiculous cost by the factory.. but I don't think that upgrade is offered anymore.   

I just couldn't justify the 100K that going to an Acclaim cost over the Bravo.