landing speeds and flap settings?

[Larrynoel]

I have been landing at 70-72 mph and full flaps.  I still seem to float a bit. How slow should I go?  Should I use less flaps?  You might think that being an A&P I would know more about my airplane.  But to tell you the truth I have not worked on an airplane that has pistons in 10 years.  I am also a fairly low time pilot.  I thank you all for all your insight.  I am in the prosses of  building a new instrument panel, I would like to share some pictures with you as it comes together.   

 

[HopePilot]

Naturally, it depends on your weight, but anything over 70 knots and I will float.  I'd say 70 over the fence is probably pretty good (full flaps).  Even a couple knots makes a difference in the Mooney.

[kerry]

1/2 flaps I'm usually at 70 when crossing the numbers.  Full flaps I need to be slower or I float.  I generally don't use flaps.  When I use no flaps my approach is 100 and I cross the numbers at 80 then flare and it settles in nicely.  I like landing no flaps and a little hot in case winds change.  I'm not saying this is best, but it works for me. 

 

[scottfromiowa]

I would not go any slower over the fence than 70 mph.  If you are talking knots there is some room.  What's the big deal about a little "float"...better than NOT having enough energy in the flare and stalling and dropping it in, right?  Try 1/2 flaps when light or in my hydraullic flaps 3 pumps or 2 instead of four.

I am 100mph base to final.  80mph over the fence and power off just letting speed come down and enter flare.  I love how the Mooney lands with this formula.  If I have weight it's full flaps with same speed.  Works out fine for my short body.

[HopePilot]

Good point.  I'm talking knots not "miles."

[N9453V]

In my 1970 "G" model, 70kts over the fence and half flaps seems to work best. I bring the power to idle over the threshold unless I am high or it's gusty.

If I'm at 75kts, it will want to float and not come down. If it's really windy, I will sometimes approach at 75, but slow to 70 once I have the runway made.

I've tried landing with full flaps, you need power until you are into the flare and it's harder to make a smooth landing. I previously operated out of a 2600ft field and never had an issue with half flaps (full flaps only lowers the stall speed 1kt).

[Lood]

I used to own an Avions Robin and the POH stated a final approach speed of 80 kts. There was just no way to get it down as I fly alone most of the time. That figure was for a landing at MAUW though - like most figures in most POH's.

The only way for me to get the correct speed was to take it up with about half tanks and determine it's stall speed in the landing configuration and used 1.3 x that as a revised final approach speed. All was well since then.
I tend to agree though that 70 kts should be about the minimum landing speed in a Mooney - or in my F at least, but it will still be weight dependant. On short fields, I go over the fence at around 65 kts, but things do get a bit sluggish at that speed and the finger has to be far out.

[Immelman]

I suggest using 1.3x stall speed. As you know stall speed depends on flap setting, it also depends on weight. The speeds published in the airplane documents and labeled on the airspeed indicator are for max gross.

You can calculate this by running run the numbers on a few configurations -- yourself solo, half tanks, you and a friend, full tanks, etc, and calculate it. The following are based on my 66E:

At max gross, Vs0 = 63mph, * 1.3 = 82mph approach speed.

Vs"new" = Vs"published" * sqrt(your weight / max gross weight)

Example using my 66E model @ 2200lbs (2575 max gross):

Vs"new" = 63mph * sqrt (2200/2575) = 58mph * 1.3 = approach speed of 75mph at that weight

I really do suggest doing this exercise for your particular model (and year of manufacture) Mooney instead of listening to someone say "use 70 knots..." - the reason is that the gross weights and stall speeds at those weights vary substantially; your J has a higher gross weight than my E (bigger airframe, more fuel capacity), and some have a mod to increase max gross... which of course updates of the published speeds that are a function of stall.

[mooneygirl]

I agree with Jesse.  Mitch had an F and I have an E.  It is all about knowing your airplane and what you are carrying weight and wind-wise.  My ASI in is MPH.  I do 100 downwind, 90 on base, 80 on final and 75 over the fence.  I have to say because of all the Ambassador events we have been to, we have seen our share of Mooneys floating floating floating.  In my humble opinion it is due to the fact that these lovely airplanes don't want to slow down. They want to fly.  I rotate at 65 mph, so it doesn't take much to know that she will keep flying no problem at 80!  Also, the trim wheel has become my friend.

[231Pilot]

Jesse hit it right on the money.  There is no set speed for any given model.  Get up in the air and have some fun with your plane and find your speed at different configurations.  Any other answer will result in 'float' or in some 'hard landings'.  With aircraft, there really isn't a 'one size fits all' speed for landing.

[Piloto]

Quote: kerry

1/2 flaps I'm usually at 70 when crossing the numbers.  Full flaps I need to be slower or I float.  I generally don't use flaps.  When I use no flaps my approach is 100 and I cross the numbers at 80 then flare and it settles in nicely.  I like landing no flaps and a little hot in case winds change.  I'm not saying this is best, but it works for me. 

 

[FlyDave]

Here's a thread on landng a Mooney Bravo that I described how I land my 201. Look about halfway down the page:

http://mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=2354

As others have noted - which I did not - landing near gross you need to add up to 5 KIAS.

[eldeano]

Quote: scottfromiowa

I would not go any slower over the fence than 70 mph.  If you are talking knots there is some room.  What's the big deal about a little "float"...better than NOT having enough energy in the flare and stalling and dropping it in, right?  Try 1/2 flaps when light or in my hydraullic flaps 3 pumps or 2 instead of four.

I am 100mph base to final.  80mph over the fence and power off just letting speed come down and enter flare.  I love how the Mooney lands with this formula.  If I have weight it's full flaps with same speed.  Works out fine for my short body.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: N9453V

I've tried landing with full flaps, you need power until you are into the flare and it's harder to make a smooth landing.

[Shadrach]

Quote: scottfromiowa

I would not go any slower over the fence than 70 mph.  If you are talking knots there is some room.  What's the big deal about a little "float"...better than NOT having enough energy in the flare and stalling and dropping it in, right?  Try 1/2 flaps when light or in my hydraullic flaps 3 pumps or 2 instead of four.

I am 100mph base to final.  80mph over the fence and power off just letting speed come down and enter flare.  I love how the Mooney lands with this formula.  If I have weight it's full flaps with same speed.  Works out fine for my short body.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Shadrach

67 F Model

2000lbs 

1.2 x 48.5KIAS = 58KIAS = 67mph

1.3 x 48.5KIAS =63KIAS = 72mph

[Shadrach]

I agree with you Ken (which is not uncommon).

Perhaps it is all related. However, I've heard and seen more than one CFI perpetuate what I know to be a falsehood.  A guy across the hangar from me spent 2 days with a Flight Safety instructor transitioning into his company's Bravo. He came back using partial flaps as SOP. His personal minimum in the Bravo are just now down to 3500ft and he uses it!!! This is the same CFI that taught him 24/24 and 50 ROP. I asked the CFI why he liked that power setting. He did not really know...  I think I was told that the company paid $4500 for the trans training... Money/time well spent?  You don't always receive what you've payed for...

[rbridges]

I was told 70 knots and full flaps.  Works well but if I flare too early, I float a long ways (compared to the cherokee I used to fly). 

[Ned Gravel]

I also agree with Jesse.  Most cases is turning base at 90 mph in the white arc.  Turning final near 80 mph and then it is into the speed previously derived from the formula (generally between 70 and 75 to cross the fence and over the numbers). Land with full flaps.

IFR approach is a little different.  Only change is prior to visual acquisition of the runway, and that can depend on the length of the runway.  FAF at 90 with gear and TO flaps down (2 pumps).  If the runway is not made, I am already in the missed approach configuration.  Just need to add power at MAP or DH.

Now comes the difference based on runway length.  If visual acquisition is made with 1000' or more of altitude, in go the remaining flaps and land as if VFR. 

• 
  
• If visual acquisition is made only below 1000' AGL, and on 4000' or more of runway, I let the speed bleed off but change nothing else. Normally near 75 mph when crossing the fence.  Three times more runway than I need to get down safely even without all four pumps of flaps.
  
• If visual acquisition is made only below 1000' AGL, with less than 4000' of runway, I will put in two more pumps of flaps and trim up.  More than TO flaps in my 65E does not increase lift, but it does create serious drag.  Normally nearer 70 mph when crossing the fence.
  

YMMV

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: KLRDMD

It seems many pilots don't adjust speeds based on weight. They simply know, and parrot gross weight numbers. Yet they rarely fly at gross weight.

Primary CFIs don't emphasize this, maybe because in the training environment there isn't a lot of variation of weight. However, when transitioning to their Mooneys, if the pilot chose a Mooney knowledgable CFI, maybe they would have been taught to based speeds on weight.

I've also found, and cannot explain, that many on this board prefer less than full flaps for routine landing. Again, I would hope that a Mooney knowledgable CFI would discuss this during the transition training.

Unfortunately, I've also found that many consider the insurance mandated dual instruction time when moving to the Mooney as a penalty versus an opportunity to learn - maybe all the above are related ?

[KLRDMD]

Quote: WardHolbrook

[Shadrach]

Quote: WardHolbrook

[Piloto]

Quote: Shadrach

[Shadrach]

 

José,

I was being facetious...that's what the wink was for! 

[Seth]

To reply to the runway length minimum question - there's an old thread on that from 2009, but with more members on teh board now . . .

I used to operate out of W00 - Freeway as my home base in Maryland and the runway is 2400 feet with a displaced threshold on one end, 40 or 45 feed wide, with tall trees, power lines, and a highway.  That's where I learned to fly the mooney.  I have been into a 2000 foot strip, and would proabaly consider an 1800 foot strip, but I've never landed at anything less than 2000.

Oh, and I have manual flaps - once I've touched down, during the landing roll, I raise the flaps in order to keep the aircaft firmly planted on runway.  This may not be necessary, but for a short field technique, it allows for greater breaking.  Also, seeing that learned the Mooney at W00 - Freeway, maybe that's the way they teach all their students (I've only flown a 172 there once).

-Seth