Promo: Santa Fe Aero Aspen Install

[PTK]

Quote: fantom

"It's nice but unnecessary"

Just like putting a GTN 750, GMA 35 and GTX 33 in an otherwise old panel....

[OR75]

just wishing there was as much technology progress on the powerplant side as there is on the pannel side to keep a certain balance.

We still fly behind piston engines developped several decades ago.   

[fantom]

"Please educate me"

I don't have that much time, or patience ;-)

What you're not getting is that almost ALL our upgrade choices are "nice but unnecessary". Yours certainly was.

[PTK]

Quote: OR75

just wishing there was as much technology progress on the powerplant side as there is on the pannel side to keep a certain balance.

We still fly behind piston engines developped several decades ago.   

[PTK]

Quote: fantom

"Please educate me"

I don't have that much time, or patience ;-)

What you're not getting is that almost ALL our upgrade choices are "nice but unnecessary". Yours certainly was.

[OR75]

what I would want in an engine ? just like what the airlines  got: more power, less fuel as they go from 4 or 3 to 2 engines.

VOR/RNAV and Loran are/were bullet proof.   

[PTK]

Quote: OR75

what I would want in an engine ? just like what the airlines  got: more power, less fuel as they go from 4 or 3 to 2 engines.

VOR/RNAV and Loran are/were bullet proof.   

[OR75]

just saying that avionics / panel have been advancing much faster than powerplants and airframes. I understand that's how technology goes sometimes. Not a perfect world.  I fly to go somewhere rather than to look at my my panel. What I have on the panel is only there to help me get there safely.  Else, i would just configure flight simulator with the avionics I want.     

[PTK]

Quote: OR75

just saying that avionics / panel have been advancing much faster than powerplants and airframes. I understand that's how technology goes sometimes. Not a perfect world.  I fly to go somewhere rather than to look at my my panel. What I have on the panel is only there to help me get there safely.  Else, i would just configure flight simulator with the avionics I want.     

[fantom]

"By your logic everything is unnecessary including our Mooneys ! We might as well fly a J3 Cub"

You're a hoot, and as always, take a logical discussion to a ridiculous extreme.

I believe you could handle a J-3 Cub about as much as I believe you can cruise your J at 165 kts on 9 GPH.

[PTK]

Quote: fantom

"By your logic everything is unnecessary including our Mooneys ! We might as well fly a J3 Cub"

You're a hoot, and as always, take a logical discussion to a ridiculous extreme.

I believe you could handle a J-3 Cub about as much as I believe you can cruise your J at 165 kts on 9 GPH.

[danb35]

Quote: allsmiles

As far as we in GA are concerned Garmin is the one leader who has single handedly advanced the technology to the point where we can actually afford it.

[snip]

Look at Honeywell with their KSN770.  They have been "working" on it for years!

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

Interesting--that's not the song you were singing a few months ago.  Then Garmin was awful, their (market leading/defining) products were awful, and the KSN770 was going to kill Garmin.  The fact that the 770 had been vaporware for 4 years didn't seem to bother you at the time.  I guess since you spent $BIGNUM on Garmin, now King isn't worth waiting for.

[bd32322]

garmin needs competition - pure and simple - and aspen brings it to them at a cheaper price point. I dont care if its made in China/ India /Mexico - as long as it performs the same way. Allsmiles you belong to another era - the world is global and my money goes to the better product - be it Garmin or Aspen. And definitely Garmin being the only leader - helps no one - they are exorbitantly priced - they definitely need competition - and competition is good for GA - not garmin.

 

When was the last time you opened a garmin box up and identified all the parts that came from which country/ state/ company. I opened up my handheld to fix it - because its screen went blank after a year of usage (yay Garmin) - and it had off the shelf parts from everywhere costing a few dollars and then a stamp on the box for "Made in USA" - the board prolly came from Taiwan - there were AMDs chips in there which are made by global foundries owned in the middle east - I could go on.

[bd32322]

and we also need standardization - no Garmin memory card programmable by 200$ garmin programmer only and Jeppesen memory card programmable by Jeppesen card programmer only. Thats the simplest example - but you could carry the philosophy to any part of the device really.

[PTK]

Quote: bd32322

garmin needs competition - pure and simple - and aspen brings it to them at a cheaper price point. I dont care if its made in China/ India /Mexico - as long as it performs the same way. Allsmiles you belong to another era - the world is global and my money goes to the better product - be it Garmin or Aspen. And definitely Garmin being the only leader - helps no one - they are exorbitantly priced - they definitely need competition - and competition is good for GA - not garmin.

 

When was the last time you opened a garmin box up and identified all the parts that came from which country/ state/ company. I opened up my handheld to fix it - because its screen went blank after a year of usage (yay Garmin) - and it had off the shelf parts from everywhere costing a few dollars and then a stamp on the box for "Made in USA" - the board prolly came from Taiwan - there were AMDs chips in there which are made by global foundries owned in the middle east - I could go on.

[fantom]

"Why do you think that is ?" Certainly not for our reasonably priced dental care.

"You need to wake up and stop taking whatever it is you are on"  I trust you're more civil in person.

[mooniac58]

I can tell you that Aspen has taken a huge chunk out of Garmins plans for the G500.  My local shop has installed 52 Aspen displays and 2 G500/G600 systems.  Now we are also in the backyard of Aspen down in ABQ, which likely plays influence - but I think most customers sit the two products side by side and realize they can have more features, more reliability, more flexibility, more safety/redundancy and better operating  costs with an Aspen flight deck.

I got a chance recently to play with Aspen SVT and it is very cool and innovative.  One of the things I liked best is it will allow me to pull up a pure SVT view on one of my many MFD panels.  This will allow you to keep a clean AI/HSI on your PFD and still have a "view outside" on your MFD - no one else has done this in the glass panel world yet. Of course you can still have the SVT appear behind your AI/HSI ala Garmin style, but I like the more robust choices Aspen gives you.

This is one of the cool things about an Aspen 2500 (3 screen) setup is you will look at one pilot to the next and because the sky is the limit with configuration you will find that each pilot sets up their screen layout to fit their unique flying style or their particular mission.  With the G500 you have the AI/HSI on your PFD and they you can have one thing on your MFD...if you want an approach plate up then you just lost your map overlay, or your weather, etc.

I generally fly in these configs:

VFR/CRUISE:

- PFD (AI/HSI)
- MFD1 (Traffic (upper left panel), Terrain (upper right panel), Heading up VFR color map at 25 mile zoom (lower panel)
- MFD2 (XM Weather reports or dark IFR map in North-up config @ 150 mile zoom)

IFR/APPROACH:

- PFD (AI/HSI)
- MFD1 (Traffic (upper left panel), Terrain (upper right panel), Heading up IFR dark map at 25 mile zoom (lower panel)
- MFD2 (Geo ref approach plate)

You just cannot get the situational awareness with a G500 that the above configurations provide.  About a month ago I had to shoot a VOR circling approach into KSAF with 5/8 visibility in smoke - using the IFR approach configuration above.  The level of situational awareness I had was incredible.  There is something extra reassuring about seeing your aircraft right over the plate as well as following the magenta course lines on the top down vector map.

Allsmiles you mentioned G500 has "bigger screens" that is not actually true, they are just wider, square inches is about the same as the Aspens are longer and thinner.  Another valid point is the HSI on the Aspens is actually larger than Garmins.  Lastly with Aspen you can have 3 screens (as I do) for about the same price installed as two G500 screens - which gives you whole mess more screen space and display options.

Garmin builds great stuff.  I think the G500/600 is nice, but in my opinion it just does not stack up next to what the Aspen units are able to deliver at the same pricepoint.  I really like their 750/650 GTN models and will likely upgrade my radio stack to this  one day as well (at least a 650 in place of my 430 for sure).

[bd32322]

mooniac - with reference to the big screens from Garmin - maybe there is a market for what appears to be bigger or wider displays from Aspen. I know Aspen wanted the screens to fit in the existing panel - which is a great idea for upgrading piecemeal - but it leaves a lot of bezel room in between each aspen display (not a deal breaker in my opinion).

But for the clean slate upgraders - they dont need to fit the aspens into existing instrument holes. A wider bigger screen will look better aesthetically - and satisfy a larger section of the pilot population. Once you put hard numbers on how many people will buy the bigger wider display - maybe it wont make sense - I dont know.

[jetdriven]

I can explain most of your 50 LB weight gain.  First of all, the licensed empty weight of your plane from the factory is just an estimate.  They weigh an airplane every few serial numbers and take the average of that.  Now 30 years of removing and reinstalling equipment, based on the weights on the data plates.  Anything less than one pound does not change W+B data.  My own plane had an engine monitor installed with no change. Yeah right.  So you could install 30 items weighing .9 lbs each, and no change to weight and balance data.  Its legal. Also, consider that a mechanic replaced our alternator with a Plane Power and didnt update the W+B record for the -2.8 LB change.  Amazing what 500$ labor buys these days.

So 30 years of repairs, drilling rivets and replacing, doublers for cowl flap mounting, reinforcing the boot cowl with new fiberglass. Stripped screws replaced with oversize, or stainless. Cut zip ties, added wiring. New interior. Carpet. Perhaps some soundproofing.  Leather covered yokes.   Its called service weight pickup.  Thats the reason commercial aircraft must be reweighed every 36 months.

Now the factory paint job is very thin.  Sometime along the way, the airplane was strippped, some body work done, and a nice new paint job with 2 coats of primer, a wash primer, then 2 coats of paint.  Mauybe 3 or more, and a coat of clear.   You reweigh the plane, and !!!! WTF?   This cant be right!

I'd say most planes weigh 40 lbs more than what they are licensed at.  Roll it onto the scales and find out. EAA does this sometimes at fly-ins.   You don't have to update the W+B record.  You may not like what you find, however.

I hope this helps your understanding.

Quote: mooniac58

 I added a bunch of weight actually and I am not 100% sure this is not just the scales being off at the shop (or the last scales I was weighed on being off).

According to my shop I gained 50lbs, which makes no sense to me.  The vaccuum system was removed, the old ADF antanae was removed, the Aspen screens are very light and replaced 6 steam gauges, the panel is essentially the same.  We added the Stec-55 autopilot and its servos, we added the TAS-600 Avidyne traffic system and the XM Weather module in the tail, but it would be hard to imagine all the weight came from just that.

At some point down the road I plan on doing another weigh in to see if I get a different result.  Basically my aircraft now weights about 100lbs more than it did when it left the factory.  That seems hard to believe with a panel that clean.  Plus I have upgrade to the Plane Power lightweight alternator and Skytech lightweight starter.  Go figure!

[jetdriven]

The only Mooney that can cruise at 165 knots on 9 GPH is Testwest.  And his is a pretty seriously modified 201. Ours, 9 GPH gets you 150 knots.

Quote: allsmiles

This is available but not to us because it is cost prohibitive.  We HAVE the next best thing.  We have a bullet proof engine married to an airframe that has been evolved for raw speed.  Who else can cruise at 165 knots at 9 gph ??  Know any other airplane that can claim this ?

VOR/RNAV and Loran are/were bullet proof but they have been replaced by new technology.  There is nothing affordble to us that can replace our engines. Not yet anyway.

[testwest]

Hehehe, thanks for the compliment! Actually our numbers are more like 162ish knots and 9.5ish gph LOP, with the Lopresti ram air on. It is really effective, we get 1 inch above 8000 at WOT (lower dynamic pressure, higher TAS), and the advertised 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches low and WOT maxed out (ROP there, at race power).

We really want to put an Aspen in, but can't stand not redoing the whole thing with an EDM-930 primary as well. Workin' to get the $$$ together for that.

[fantom]

Quote: testwest

We really want to put an Aspen in, but can't stand not redoing the whole thing with an EDM-930 primary as well.

[testwest]

Excellent, and a good trade off on your cruise. Gotta love Mooneys!

Aspen now has another promo, called Power Your Panel:

http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/rebates/PYP2011/

$1000 (one Mooney Monetary Unit) off a single EFD1000 PFD Pro, thru July 31.

I have a single PFD Pro in the twin Mooney (601P) and we also have a single PFD in one of our T-33s at work. Really like these units. GPSS in the twin works great with the old C-IV autopilot...I like it for the reduced workload for complex approaches. It is way cool to watch it track through an entire procedure turn.....and I would call that "nice and necessary" for poor(er) other conditions, such as night and in icing.

Mooniac58 put up a great post above on exactly how he uses his Aspen setup for different conditions. Worth the slog through the thread, IMHO.

A few other posters, umm, drifted a bit. 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: bd32322

mooniac - with reference to the big screens from Garmin - maybe there is a market for what appears to be bigger or wider displays from Aspen.

But for the clean slate upgraders - they dont need to fit the aspens into existing instrument holes. A wider bigger screen will look better aesthetically - and satisfy a larger section of the pilot population. On