Mooney Ovation vs Diamond Da40

[Niko182]

So to begin, I do realize I am comparing 2 very different aircraft. one being plastic, the other being metal.
one of these 2 planes is an absolute speed demon. The other is slower, but less of a handful. I am rather
a new pilot. I have been flying for about 4 years, and currently have about 115 hours total time. I am currently
18 years old and pretty tall 6 3ish, and 155 pounds. learned and solod in j-3, and finished my license in 172.
my main mission would be to travel, but i would also like to finish both my commercial and IFR in this plane.
I will be carrying 4 people and all of them are 6 feet or taller, so older Mooney are mostly out of the running.
I grew up in sitting in the back of a 231 as that's what my parents owned and both my parents plan on getting re-certified
so they can fly again and they are both IFR certified. Additionally, My dad wants a glass cockpit so its going to be the 2GX or 3.
This plane will be used for training and traveling. Id say budget is 200k to 250k. Which would you pick and why. I also do realize that
i am on Mooney space, but I'm trying to get as many opinions as possible.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Niko182

[johncuyle]

Ever sat in a DA-40? I'm 6'2" and there's not a lot of clearance under the canopy. If any of your passengers are any taller than you,  the Diamond is likely to be a problem. Also, useful load on a typical DA-40 is not great, I think they tend to be under 900#. Even a J model is probably a better option for four very tall, very thin people.

Mooneys are easy to fly provided you get good transition training. I went straight from 172s into a J model. Things happen faster but the plane handles better and in some ways is easier to fly. 30 hours later I was in a 231, which (I've never flown an Ovation) I suspect is a little more difficult to fly than an Ovation. At the time I had about the same number of hours you do and I am not a superior pilot by any means. It's doable for a pilot of average ability with good transition training. Mentioning it twice was international.

That said, I do really like the Diamonds and would definitely be more interested in one of them than an SR-20. They have stellar safety records and the CFI I did my Mooney training with had time in them and said they fly great. Their upcoming models would be planes to watch if I was even vaguely in the market for a $800k plane.

[smccray]

4 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

my main mission would be to travel, but i would also like to finish both my commercial and IFR in this plane.
 

You won't complete commercial in a fixed gear aircraft.  A lot of schools around here do a combined multi-engine/commercial check ride, then complete the maneuvers in a different single engine airplane.   No big deal- I wouldn't let this limitation keep you away from a DA40 if it's the right airplane.

5 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I will be carrying 4 people and all of them are 6 feet or taller, so older Mooney are mostly out of the running.
I grew up in sitting in the back of a 231 as that's what my parents owned and both my parents plan on getting re-certified
so they can fly again and they are both IFR certified.

If you're really looking at a lot of travel with 4 6' tall people you need a 6 place airplane.  At the same time... a lot of people think they're going to do a lot of travel with the plane completely full and then it doesn't happen after they have the plane.  Not saying it won't happen, but think twice before you make this part of your criteria.  If you need to fill the seats neither of these planes is going to work for you if you need to go a significant distance under IFR conditions with bags. 

Run a few weight and balance problems assuming 600 lbs of people- that 4 150 lb people (likely too light).  Assume you can get an ovation with 1000 lbs of useful load, and what's a conservative fuel burn for block times- 15 gph?  How far is your flight?  Not sure what the useful load looks like on the DA40, but somehow I doubt it's going to look much more feasible than the Mooney.  If you want a Mooney look for a screaming eagle, but you would be limited to retrofit glass.  The Mooney will be a step up compared to a 172.

6 place with factory glass is likely going to be above your budget.  A Cessna 206 or an avidyne Saratoga will be tough.  The Beech G36 will need tip tanks and a useful load increase for your mission.

 

 

[DanM20C]

A few years ago I delivered a G1000 DA-40 to a new owner from Ft. Lauderdale to Minnesota.  The DA-40 is a great airplane but I was a little disappointed in the overall performance.  My C (45 years old at the time) cruised at the same speed on slightly less fuel flow.  The C also had about 200lbs more useful load.

I'm 6'3" and I found the DA-40 comfortable, the visibility is outstanding. 

The Mooney wins hands down for "tall pilot" comfort (front seats on all models).

If your mission is room for 4 adults all the time, you probably will be better off with 6 seats.

Cheers,

Dan

[KSMooniac]

I'd look for a J model or Screaming Eagle conversion S model, and then choose a retrofit glass panel of your choosing.

I agree with Scott's comments too...how often will you fly 4-up with bags? How far? It is possible in a lightweight J (or F) with light bags up to 500 miles. Not sure on the long bodies.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[TomR]

6' 3" pilot here and new to mooneys myself. Your not going to beat a mooney for tall person comfort, no single engine piston beats it. The "stretch your legs out and relax" is unique to mooneys in my opinion. Like others have said the 4 passenger thing is going to be your caveat. No mooney has leg room in the back. But with that being said if you truly evaluate your mission you might realize you won't be flying more then yourself and one person very often. If you need to stick full grown men in the back a six place like a 206 is the way to go. As others have said if a mooney fits your mission you won't be disappointed 

Edited October 4, 2017 by TomR

[carusoam]

See if Erik has input on this one... @aviatoreb  I think he had the DA40 experience prior to the Rocket....

I'm a composites guy down deep, but wouldn't go there until it helps me fly more quickly, safely or efficiently than what I have already...

The first Mooneys were built from a natural composite material.  They called it  'wood' and it made very nice smooth shaped parts...

Best regards, and welcome aboard MS,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

Actually it is fine in the back of a mid or long body Mooney. Far better than in a club seating setup of a 6 place IMO with long legs.

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[steingar]

If you really want  to travel with four big adults I'd get the Skylane.

[carusoam]

An Eagle often has 1100+ UL. Depending on the size of the occupants, you can fly pretty far...

The O often has 1000+ UL.

Chevy Tahoe like seat spacing...

Best regards,

-a-

[Robert C.]

I flew both, courtesy of kind strangers, before deciding on the O3 that I now own.

1) I'm 5'8'' and found the DA-40 quite comfortable and the views are amazing. Very ergonomic cockpit.

2) If I wanted to fly 145kts in a 4-seater I could have stayed in the Flying Club and rented the Dakota; now I go 175kt on fewer gph. Passengers haven't yet complained about the space in the back seats, but then again none of them were 6+ ft.

3) I had appr 150 hrs when I bought my Ovation and combined transition training with an accelerated IFR course. 10 days and 50 hrs from zero to hero :). The aircraft is much less of a handful than its reputation, but does demand you fly the numbers on approach. Once you drill it into your head that you must not have +2 kt for "insurance" you'll be fine

4) My O3 has a U/L of 906 lbs. Air Conditioner alone is 60 lbs of weight that may or may not matter to you. The tanks hold 102gl/612 lbs of fuel (96 gl usable) so that is well over 6 hrs which few people will want to do at a single sitting, so you can easily fly with less weight and more payload than the 300 lbs implied by the full fuel weight..

I have regretted plenty of things in my life, but choosing the Ovation over the DA-40 is not one of them!

Note that a G1000 Ovation may or may not have been upgraded to WAAS. The upgraded ones are likely to trade above your budget. Probably the sweetest deal around is a "DX" model that has been upgraded with a G500 and a GTN-750 and engine monitor (or you can upgrade yourself). The DX has newer engine gauges and the lower dashboard/glareshield like the GX. My 1st choice would have been a DX but they are hard to find.

Good luck!

Robert

[Oldguy]

I am 6'5" in a J and have taken the family (4 of us) several times. Me and wife (5'5") up front, daughter and son (5'9" and 6'8") in back. The trips have been under the 3 hour limit, but comfort is not bad. Our range is bathroom-limited rather than fuel limited.

Fill in your avatar with some more info. Someone may be close to you so you could see how the fit is in their plane.

[dlthig]

I don't have any time in an Ovation, but a few hours in a DA-40. The 40 isn't a bad airplane and the glass is good. However, it's hotter than your metaphor of choice in the summer and is loud with the vents open. It's fairly light on the fuel burn, which is nice because I recall the one that I flew had about 850 lbs of UL with the upgraded gear. I'd certainly rent one from the local FBO, but I don't think that I'd drop a quarter of a million on one. If you are in that cash range, you may want to consider the 6 place option so you should be able to fly 4 most of the time. Saratogas are roomy, but with all of the luxuries won't carry much. I flew one with less than 1100 lbs UL. Lances are trucks, they haul a load, but not too fast, 150 kts to be optimistic. Bonanzas with tip tanks will carry a good load with better speed, but the 210 may be your best bet if you are willing to go aftermarket with the glass, a la Aspen. Normal 210s will give you 160-165 with a 1300-1400 UL. There are plenty that are sub 200K so you'll have room to spend on the panel. Add in the SR22s and the list gets longer. I'd suggest building a spreadsheet as I flow with this obvious stream of conscious.... Good luck.

[aviatoreb]

Indeed I owned a DA40 before my rocket.  It cruised at 150kts easy. Faster than some - it had power flow.

No autopilot and it was steam gauge.

It was a super plane!  I owned it from about 100hrs through about 350 hrs of my pilot time.  I did my IFR right away on it.  It was a superb platform for all that.  It is a very easy to fly forgiving airplane; it is a very appropriate airplane for primary training, so certainly for your level (where I was) for transition to IFR.

It does some of the same things as a mooney like float if not on speed, but over all it is much more forgiving.But still decent fast.  But its not just how fast you can go but how slow you can go -a DA40 can go a lot slower than a DA40 in that things happen slower in the pattern, on approach, etc.

Eventually I outgrew it and got my rocket.  I would have done it just the same way again.  My rocket was too much for me at 100hrs. 

[exM20K]

Niko,

The DA40 and M20R each do some things very well at the expense of other things they do less well.  Define your 80% mission, and pick the right plane for that mission.  But first, make sure you fit in the DA40.  Then, get a good handle on TCO for each plane - the mooney will cost more to own.

DA40 Pro's:

• The high end of your price range will get you into a WAAS DA40XLS.  
• GFC700 is head and shoulders above anything else out there.
• For distances less than 300NM, the speed difference will be meaningless - maybe 0.2 on the tach.
• The DA40 short field performance is much better
• Ingress and egress is much easier in the DA40
• Annual is much less expensive (I pay $2500 ish for DA40's and just did a $7500 annual on a clean M20TN).
• Insurance is very inexpensive.

M20R Pro's

• You should be able to get a G500 retrofit Ovation that is WAAS very economically.  Don't fixate on the G1000 - I believe the G500 installations are in a lot of ways superior to G1000.
• The first time your 300NM trip is into a 50 knot headwind, you'll appreciate the extra speed!
• Ovation can be equipped with FIKI.  In my part of the world, this is mandatory.
• UL is higher. by a couple hundred pounds
• Ride is quieter and smoother
• High altitude performance is better

How I would decide:  

If my distances are <300NM, if I must operate frequently off a short field, if I don't need to carry four adults, if I don't need deice, then the DA40 is the winner.

If my distances are 500+, if I'm operating off long runways, if I'm in an icy part of the country, the Ovation wins.

Given your lowish time, the DA40 may be the best choice - getting your instrument rating, managing the plane, getting used to owning a plane will be easier.  Will you outgrow it in a few years? Maybe.

Lastly, the used market for both (I know the Diamond market better than the Mooney market) is very tight.  There simply are very few good planes for sale.  If you can wait until after the turn of the year, the supply/demand imbalance driven by tax buyers will abate.  

I chose the M20TN because it checked the more important boxes for me than did any Diamond - including the DA62.  But that was for my use case - long legs, flying few people, need de-ice, no Jet-A on the field, etc.  Consider carefully which boxes are important for your new plane to check, and the choice will be self-evident.

 

-de

Edited October 5, 2017 by exM20K

[carusoam]

-de,

you need to post a photo of your TN in your avatar... 

This would help my memory a lot.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Niko182]

I have flown in the back of a 231 for 8 years. granted this was from the day I was born, to about 8 years old. I got checked out to fly DA40 so i can rent those at the moment and get hours. I do like mooneys though, a lot. they are really really good looking planes, especially the modern ones. Both my parents have about 500 hours in mooneys so that might help too. my dad has the mooney mentality which is once a mooney owner, always a mooney owner. The gear does scare me a bit, but i feel i can get used to that. I took a seat in the back of an acclaim, and to be completely honest, that thing is really spacious. Way more than enough space with 4 people. some mooney O3's I have seen have a UL of about 1050, and i'm not really looking for AC or Fiki as I live in SoCal. 1050 is an optimistic number, but I have found a couple, and i'm not in a rush to get it. I don't see the point of the 6 seat saratogas or pipers as the have the same UL as the mooney at a higher fuel burn, slower speed, and most of them are turbos, which for then time being I would like to stay away from. I also heard its a good idea to stay away from retractable gear cessna's.

when ever I travel, i will be flying with 4 people, or there will be 3 or 4 instances where i will do my yearly trip up to whistler and it will be 2 people and 3 bikes.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Niko182

[Niko182]

6 hours ago, TomR said:

6' 3" pilot here and new to mooneys myself. Your not going to beat a mooney for tall person comfort, no single engine piston beats it. The "stretch your legs out and relax" is unique to mooneys in my opinion. Like others have said the 4 passenger thing is going to be your caveat. No mooney has leg room in the back. But with that being said if you truly evaluate your mission you might realize you won't be flying more then yourself and one person very often. If you need to stick full grown men in the back a six place like a 206 is the way to go. As others have said if a mooney fits your mission you won't be disappointed.

from my experience, i took a quick seat in the back of the acclaim, and in my honest opinion, theres more space in the back than there is in the front, and that was with the seat infront of me adjusted for my flying position.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Niko182

[aviatoreb]

I'm 6'4" - the da40 was ok. The mooney is better in that regard.

[carusoam]

Dad with a Mooney mentality...

Hmmm, that could describe me. 

Go O!

Best regards,

-a-

[smccray]

What do you want?  Can you afford it?  Can you fly it safely?

buy that one!!!

you can go through the analytical process, but at the end of the day if you can safely fly the plane you want without killing your financial position, there’s really nothing else to talk about.

Note- cost of ownership between the DA40 and the M20R will be significantly different. The Mooney will have higher insurance and higher operating cost per mile traveled. The J model Mooney is the better comp for the DA40.

[Niko182]

15 minutes ago, smccray said:

What do you want?  Can you afford it?  Can you fly it safely?

buy that one!!!

you can go through the analytical process, but at the end of the day if you can safely fly the plane you want without killing your financial position, there’s really nothing else to talk about.

Note- cost of ownership between the DA40 and the M20R will be significantly different. The Mooney will have higher insurance and higher operating cost per mile traveled. The J model Mooney is the better comp for the DA40.

Im also looking for realistic Ovation 2 and 3 performance number, I remember a while back, when I didn't have an account, I saw a word document with GPH, speed, and altitude for an ovation.
Edit: i don't know why i quoted this.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Niko182

[carusoam]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9157M/history/20171002/1427ZZ

Flight aware has a lot of data...

This is an O1 powered by an O3 power plant with a TopProp on an ordinary flight from Florida to NJ, this week.

It was filled with 100 gallons of 100LL prior to departure.  It was operating LOP at 9,500'...

170-180 kts gs the whole way. 13gph at 2550rpm using 20"MAP.

When it was O1 powered... I used 15gph and 175kts ROP for planning...  12gph and 165kts LOP.  Always WOT At and above 10k' to 12.5k', roughly...

Great flight,

-a-

[Niko182]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9157M/history/20171002/1427ZZ

Flight aware has a lot of data...

This is an O1 powered by an O3 power plant on an ordinary flight from Florida to NJ, this week.

It was filled with 100 gallons of 100LL prior to departure.  It was operating LOP at 9,500'...

Great flight,

-a-

It's telling me its not available. Just curious could you give me your numbers for that flight.

[carusoam]

See if this helps...

-a-