Looking for some Denver area advice

[Robert C.]

Doing some preliminary planning for a trip to Boulder, CO following the MAPA PPP in Chattenooga in early June. That looks to imply a late afternoon arrival.

My daughter (non-pilot) lives in Boulder and mentioned that in the summer like clockwork skies cloud over around 3pm and CBs/Thunderstorms are not uncommon.

The KBDU website notes that with west winds it can get very bumpy there. No IAPs into KBDU.

So the question is: should I plan for KLMO instead or should I not worry too much about afternoon weather around Denver? What are prevailing winds in the Denver area in the 1st half of June, westerly or easterly? Any other tips and advice?

Thanks in advance.

Robert

[AndyFromCB]

Oh, it can get bumpy, very, very bumpy. Slow down and you'll be fine. Generally coming in from the east Denver approach drops you down into the bumps way too early. Sometime though you want to get dropped below the peaks as you can feel the wave 150 miles east. I would highly recommend arriving earlier in the morning before the winds and convective weather pick up strength. As to wind direction, it's a total guess due the the mountains blocking the prevailing western winds, so generally, they tend to come out of north or south on the ground level. I'd take the longer runway at LMO over BDU and land with some power until established in flare as density altitude can hit 10,000ft on regular basis and the bottom just drops out if you land by pulling all power over the threshold. KAPA is a fine choice as well.

Edited April 24, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[peevee]

you probably want to be on the ground by noon, 1pm at the latest. Shouldn't be too bad by then. Usually the wind isn't too bad in the summer. BDU, EIK, LMO would all be options. BJC would be good if you need an ILS but I don't know what the transient parking situation is. 

 

Wx in denver builds over the mountains just about every day and moves east, if you wait it'll be bumpy and a good chance you won't get in. Were it me, and it often is, I'd plan to overnight in a hangar somewhere in the middle or in KS and ride it out. You might get that one in 30 afternoon where thunderstorms aren't an issue but it's unlikely. If tracon is down the crapper with denver arrivals and weather who knows where they'll route you.

[kortopates]

Personally I prefer BJC when visiting the Boulder area for their facilities for transients, plus I often get a rental car. But a late afternoon arrival is a non-starter IMO - the worst possible time. You'd have more luck getting in just before sunset after the buildup's have dissipated and things calm back down but a morning arrival would be much better; especially if you don't have much experience in the area.

[peevee]

Problem is, from the East if he waits until sunset or later the storms have hit the plains and grown.

[Robert C.]

Well, that settles the timing issue  I'll make sure it's a morning arrival.

Will contemplate the arrival airport a bit more. I probably will be renting a car, and call around for ramp fees, etc.

Thanks guys!

[AndyFromCB]

Just now, peevee said:

Problem is, from the East if he waits until sunset or later the storms have hit the plains and grown.

Depends on the system. If it's the usual 3pm to 6pm mountain generated crud, they tend not to travel too far east, they just kind of die out. I wait them out in Akron, CO a lot of times. Cheap gas, free crew car and you know you've arrived at about 500FT when the smell of cowshit hits you. Then depart around 6 or 7pm for a 20min flight onto Denver.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I have a link to this live Denver webcam embedded in my home page. I check it whenever I'm coming home from somewhere else - gives me a good idea what the buildups are doing. Boulder is nestled up against the foothills right behind the lone mid-rise building on the right. BJC is just left of that. This view is from southeast of downtown, looking northwest.

[Robert C.]

Thanks Joe, link saved to my desktop as well

 

[Bob - S50]

I've got relatives in Boulder and last May we flew there to visit.  Got in about 1700.  Guess we were lucky, no TRW south of Laramie.  We went to LMO.  Longer runway.  Instrument approach.  Cheaper gas.  Cheaper parking (may even waive all or part if you buy gas).  Further from the mountains so less turbulence.  Still a short drive to Boulder.

If someone is coming to pick you up, tell them not to believe their GPS directions.  It will most likely tell them to take Airport Rd north and have them turn left on St. Vrain Rd.  Wrong.  Have them take Airport Rd north, when they are looking down the runway, have them take the FIRST left they come to.  There is a bit of a monument there.  The road will parallel a ditch and seem like they are driving behind a bunch of hangars.  The road will eventually turn left and lead them to the parking lot for the FBO.  Ask me how I know.

[Robert C.]

Thanks Bob

[Vance Harral]

Robert, when you finalize your trip details, feel free to PM me.  Our airplane is based at KLMO, and I live just a couple of miles from KEIK.  Always happy to help out a fellow Mooney pilot with a ride or whatever.  With sufficient notice, I can probably loan you a car for a couple of days if you like.

My advice is to not necessarily get fixated on a particular airport.  KBDU in Boulder itself is a decent airport in good weather.  But KBJC, KEIK, and KLMO are all very reasonable driving distance to Boulder (about 20 minutes), so you have a wide variety of choices for approaches, runways, etc.  All these airports have maintenance facilities and self-service fuel at reasonable prices.  All have transient parking.  There may be overnight charges at KBJC, I'm not sure about that, but you can always call and ask.

I can vouch for the folks at Fly Elite Aviation in Longmont.  They'll take care of your airplane, minimal/no fees to park on the ramp, and they have competent mechanics who are Mooney savvy on the off chance you have a maintenance issue (we have all our maintenance and annuals done there).  If you're more comfortable with towered airports, KBJC is towered and has upscale FBOs with nice lounges, TVs, etc.  As for KBDU, while it is indeed closer to the mountains and lacks approaches, the truth is it's rare to "need" an instrument approach around here.  The weather tends to either be good VFR, or unflyable IMC due to icing or thunderstorms.

Concur with the advice of others that things are statistically easier if you arrive in the morning, having holed up in Kansas or eastern Colorado the night before.  But it's also completely reasonable to delay your decision of a specific airport until you're an hour out or so, then just take whichever of KBDU/KBJC/KEIK/KLMO seems best suited for the weather conditions.  If you need or want to make a local flight for pleasure or to re-position your airplane, I'm available as an "advisory" CFI.  No charge for fellow Mooney drivers.

[peevee]

Be a good time to get some mountain flying experience.

[toto]

I stopped flying into Boulder several years ago in favor of BJC. I actually really prefer Boulder, and being within biking distance of downtown, but I grew increasingly uncomfortable with the level of nordo activity from gliders and tow planes. It wasn't unusual to have one or more of each in the immediate vicinity of the airport.

Signature at BJC has iirc a $50 ramp fee that's waived with a 15-gallon fuel purchase. The staff are helpful and friendly, and have never said a word about my being the only non-jet customer. The only real surprise was a $160/night hangar fee for a piston single if you want to park inside. Sheesh.

[peevee]

You can always buy the minimum for the fee waiver and move 8 miles to eik for a top off. Bjc is a better airport than the other 3 imo but we hangar there so I'm biased.

[FoxMike]

BJC is a convient airport to Boulder, a good stop except for Signature.  Boulder airport is a good idea except for the glider operations.  Longmont is OK  except for sky diving on airport.  Compromises everywhere!  You might well get a rough ride but one thing not mentioned yet is the Class B and Class D airspace that you will need to negotiate on your way from east to west.  I do not mean this to be discouraging but lots of challenges need to be faced in the last 30 miles. 

[peevee]

Den class b is easy to avoid if he's coming in vfr. Even a na can top it pretty easily. Going around the north under the shelf isn't too bad either. I prefer that to the south and mingling with APA traffic

[Vance Harral]

Just now, peevee said:

Den class b is easy to avoid if he's coming in vfr. Even a na can top it pretty easily.

Well, it goes up to 12K.  Agree an Ovation can easily top that, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend flying over the top of the bravo as a routing strategy.  It would be a heck of a slam dunk from the west edge to any of the local airports.  12,500' also puts you right around the altitude of the highest peaks to the west, and hence in the worst turbulence from the very common westerly winds.  Instead, I'd advise taking advantage of IFR services or VFR flight following from Denver TRACON and just going through the bravo.  I know a TBM driver who gripes about the routing they give him coming into Denver because he's up playing with the jets.  But they've always treated me well down at piston altitudes.  Not sure what altitude the OP likes to cruise at, but the most reasonable rides on summer afternoons here are going to be either below 9000', or way high, like 18K and above.  The latter isn't really practical in an unpressurized aircraft.

The direct route from Chattanooga does go right over KDEN, and ATC is unlikely to clear you on that route (though they'll occasionally let you go right over the top of the runways).  But a minor deviation to the north (say, via the AKO VOR) is likely to get you cleared through the north side of the bravo at a reasonable altitude, whether VFR or IFR.  Lots of options out that way too, if you need to wait out a line of afternoon T-storms and complete the trip after dark.  KAKO is an obvious choice, but don't count out KFMM in Fort Morgan.  It's a small airport and a small town, but they have a courtesy car you can take into town for dinner, and you can get the keys after hours even when the airport is unattended.

[Vance Harral]

26 minutes ago, FoxMike said:

Longmont is OK  except for sky diving on airport.

As a local, I'm inclined to say this sounds like a bigger deal than it really is in practice.  The jump aircraft inform Denver TRACON when they're about to drop, and also make an announcement on the KLMO CTAF.  So if you're actually going to Longmont, you'll hear about jump activity one way or the other.  The only thing you need to do differently is not enter the pattern by flying directly over midfield into the downwind leg (use a 45-to-downwind or enter on base or crosswind).  Once you're in the pattern, you just fly a normal pattern, even with jump activity.  The jumpers come down south of the runway, with plenty of clearance from the runway itself, as well as the downwind leg.

In my opinion, the biggest risk from jump activity around Longmont is to transient aircraft trying to squeeze between the mountains and the western edge of the Bravo without talking to anyone.  Pilots unfamiliar with the area might use KLMO as a landmark and fly right over the top without being aware of jump activity.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Well, it goes up to 12K.  Agree an Ovation can easily top that, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend flying over the top of the bravo as a routing strategy.  It would be a heck of a slam dunk from the west edge to any of the local airports.  12,500' also puts you right around the altitude of the highest peaks to the west, and hence in the worst turbulence from the very common westerly winds.  Instead, I'd advise taking advantage of IFR services or VFR flight following from Denver TRACON and just going through the bravo.  I know a TBM driver who gripes about the routing they give him coming into Denver because he's up playing with the jets.  But they've always treated me well down at piston altitudes.  Not sure what altitude the OP likes to cruise at, but the most reasonable rides on summer afternoons here are going to be either below 9000', or way high, like 18K and above.  The latter isn't really practical in an unpressurized aircraft.

The direct route from Chattanooga does go right over KDEN, and ATC is unlikely to clear you on that route (though they'll occasionally let you go right over the top of the runways).  But a minor deviation to the north (say, via the AKO VOR) is likely to get you cleared through the north side of the bravo at a reasonable altitude, whether VFR or IFR.  Lots of options out that way too, if you need to wait out a line of afternoon T-storms and complete the trip after dark.  KAKO is an obvious choice, but don't count out KFMM in Fort Morgan.  It's a small airport and a small town, but they have a courtesy car you can take into town for dinner, and you can get the keys after hours even when the airport is unattended.

This is all excellent advice.

And remaining below the Class B 8000' shelf VFR if necessary is pretty straightforward (and easy given the typical 50+ mile visibility) The difficult part of the Denver B is that the multiple N-S and E-W runways are generally in use at the same time, making over the top of the airport transitions unlikely. It also means VFR can sometimes be a better option due to IFR separation requirement if the IFR flightbis crossing approach/departure routes  (as I learned one day). But that's balanced with a very GA-friendly ATC. 

[peevee]

9 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Well, it goes up to 12K.  Agree an Ovation can easily top that, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend flying over the top of the bravo as a routing strategy.  It would be a heck of a slam dunk from the west edge to any of the local airports.  12,500' also puts you right around the altitude of the highest peaks to the west, and hence in the worst turbulence from the very common westerly winds. 

Neither usually a problem, especially on a summer morning I wouldn't be too concerned about bumps. I'd be more concerned what denver tracon is going to do to get you around KDEN. Sometimes you can fly right over the field, sometimes not. 12,5 to field altitude is only 7,000 feet to lose. Come in a bit north of the delta and dump altitude. No big deal.

[peevee]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

The difficult part of the Denver B is that the multiple N-S and E-W runways are generally in use at the same time,

90% of the time in the summer they'll depart on 1 west and one north runway land north x3.

[peevee]

9 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

As a local, I'm inclined to say this sounds like a bigger deal than it really is in practice.  The jump aircraft inform Denver TRACON when they're about to drop, and also make an announcement on the KLMO CTAF.  So if you're actually going to Longmont, you'll hear about jump activity one way or the other.  The only thing you need to do differently is not enter the pattern by flying directly over midfield into the downwind leg (use a 45-to-downwind or enter on base or crosswind).  Once you're in the pattern, you just fly a normal pattern, even with jump activity.  The jumpers come down south of the runway, with plenty of clearance from the runway itself, as well as the downwind leg.

In my opinion, the biggest risk from jump activity around Longmont is to transient aircraft trying to squeeze between the mountains and the western edge of the Bravo without talking to anyone.  Pilots unfamiliar with the area might use KLMO as a landmark and fly right over the top without being aware of jump activity.

you need to be on the lookout for a kingair and or a twin otter hauling ass into the pattern though and expect a lot of traffic squeezed in between the bravo and the rocks in general. It's a busy corridor.

[Robert C.]

Thanks guys; a tremendous amount of great advice here!

[Bob - S50]

7 minutes ago, peevee said:

you need to be on the lookout for a kingair and or a twin otter hauling ass into the pattern though and expect a lot of traffic squeezed in between the bravo and the rocks in general. It's a busy corridor.

Hey, I've seen that KingAir.  Last May.  He was departing as I was arriving from the north.  I had him in sight and we talked to each other to deconflict.  I'll be back again in September this year.