Ever get the urge to sit behind two fans?

[KLRDMD]

19 hours ago, Sherman18 said:

Ken,  What do you figure an annual on the P337 would be?  I can't imagine it anywhere near what it costs for any Mooney.

I asked my shop so I can give you better numbers. It is about $1,000 more for the P337 than a Mooney 231.

His response:

$2,380.00 is the flat rate for the 231. It figures out to 28 hours.

$3,400.00 for the P337. It figures out to 40 hours.

[Roger O]

Not really crazy difference considering.  That P337 is looking better and better!

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Sherman18 said:

Not really crazy difference considering.  That P337 is looking better and better!

They are amazing airplanes. Tremendously misunderstood and maligned but that just keeps the prices down !

[jetdriven]

21 hours ago, M016576 said:

I was interested in Seneca's until I flew one.  Not interested in those anymore!

I love the looks of a P-Baron, but once I started doing the math, the costs far outweighed the benefit of my missile.

insurance was quoted at 3K vs 1200 in the missile

fuel burn is about double (24gph vs 12.5)

annuals are 2-3x as much (3-5K avg vs 1500 or so)

speed is faster on the baron (I normally fly lop at 175KTAS), but over he course of a two hour flight we're only talking a 10-15 minute difference.

the Baron has 6 seats, but the useful load isn't much better than the 1010lbs on the missile (mines TKS'd)

with all that in mind, I can't justify it.  But..... if I do hit it big time.... then I certainly would pull the trigger on a P-Baron- would be a great ride if money was no object....

A Baron is a 500$/hr airplane. The P is more like 600$.    Those -WB's will stop your heart when the engine shop bill arrives for 60-70k a side. 

[peevee]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

They are amazing airplanes. Tremendously misunderstood and maligned but that just keeps the prices down !

Stop talking about them. It's just gonna make me buy one.

[KLRDMD]

[peevee]

the only negative I've seen is the P337 is only certified to FL200

[gsengle]

Wow, low


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[peevee]

8 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Wow, low


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higher than you'll fly a N/A mooney.

[gsengle]

No, a M20R is also certified to 20k feet, so not higher.


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[peevee]

47 minutes ago, gsengle said:

No, a M20R is also certified to 20k feet, so not higher.


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and you're really going to climb to FL200 at 100 or 200FPM? Not in reality. So yes, higher. Reports are the P337 can easily climb to FL250 but it wasn't certified for it. Big difference between that and service ceiling on a NA airplane.

[gsengle]

I have, and it's not that slow.

The point wasn't anything about the M20R, it was commenting that it seems low for an airplane that is turbocharged and pressurized to have the same service ceiling. You're changing the subject...


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[peevee]

4 minutes ago, gsengle said:

I have, and it's not that slow.

The point wasn't anything about the M20R, it was commenting that it seems low for an airplane that is turbocharged and pressurized to have the same service ceiling. You're changing the subject...


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by definition that isn't the aircrafts service ceiling.

[gsengle]

You said the service ceiling of 20k feet for a P337 was higher than any NA Mooney service ceiling. And that's false. That is all.

 

 

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[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

the only negative I've seen is the P337 is only certified to FL200

I did not do a single flight in my P337 above 17,500 ft. The people I know with P337s and P210s tend to fly between 13,000 and 18,000 ft as that's their 'sweet spot'. In my current 231, certified to 24,000 ft, I still fly 10,000 - 15,000 ft on almost every flight. And I live out west. 20,000 ft is plenty high for the vast majority of pilots. If you need to fly above 20,000 ft, you need a different airplane.

[peevee]

36 minutes ago, gsengle said:

You said the service ceiling of 20k feet for a P337 was higher than any NA Mooney service ceiling. And that's false. That is all.

 

 

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No, I said the P337 is CERTIFIED to FL200.

You're the one that said service ceiling. And the service ceiling on the P337 IS higher than NA mooneys

The big difference here is that it's practical to operate at FL200 in a P337. It isn't in a NA mooney. Unless you like climbing for 2 hours of your 3 hour leg.

[peevee]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

I did not do a single flight in my P337 above 17,500 ft. The people I know with P337s and P210s tend to fly between 13,000 and 18,000 ft as that's their 'sweet spot'. In my current 231, certified to 24,000 ft, I still fly 10,000 - 15,000 ft on almost every flight. And I live out west. 20,000 ft is plenty high for the vast majority of pilots. If you need to fly above 20,000 ft, you need a different airplane.

looks like the T337 can do FL300, RVSM not withstanding.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, peevee said:

No, I said the P337 is CERTIFIED to FL200. You're the one that said service ceiling. And the service ceiling on the P337 IS higher than NA mooneys. The big difference here is that it's practical to operate at FL200 in a P337. It isn't in a NA mooney. Unless you like climbing for 2 hours of your 3 hour leg.

If you're at 20,000 ft in a P337 and your buddy is right next to you in his Mooney, also at 20,000 ft and you both lose an engine, the P337 can maintain 18,700 ft. The Mooney, not so much 

[peevee]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

If you're at 20,000 ft in a P337 and your buddy is right next to you in his Mooney, also at 20,000 ft and you both lose an engine, the P337 can maintain 18,700 ft. The Mooney, not so much 

kind of an important feature, living in CO.

to have deice boots and the ability to cross the rocks at night would be pretty cool.

 

To be fair the rocket can full feather and I think the glide is 1nm per 437ft of altitude, so if I'm at FL240 I have a ways to go, but airports can be few and far between in some places.

[KLRDMD]

3 minutes ago, peevee said:

looks like the T337 can do FL300, RVSM not withstanding.

Actually, 33,000 ft (10,000 m). Back in the day before RVSM.

[Godfather]

2 minutes ago, peevee said:

The big difference here is that it's practical to operate at FL200 in a P337. It isn't in a NA mooney. Unless you like climbing for 2 hours of your 3 hour leg.

What a load of crap...please explain to me how much time you save in 231 rocket vs a 310 hp Ovation from sea level to 20k both loaded with a couple people and 4 hrs of fuel. 

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, Godfather said:

What a load of crap...please explain to me how much time you save in 231 rocket vs a 310 hp Ovation from sea level to 20k both loaded with a couple people and 4 hrs of fuel. 

Well, I can climb there in about 13 minutes for one.

if it's so easy and practical to operate NA mooneys in the high teens why is literally no one doing it ever? And when they do the once in their life to show that they did it they post pics about it. Come back to reality.

[gsengle]

Well, I can climb there in about 13 minutes for one.
if it's so easy and practical to operate NA mooneys in the high teens why is literally no one doing it ever? And when they do the once in their life to show that they did it they post pics about it. Come back to reality.

An Ovation does fine going up to the teens full stop.

Someone explain why the P337 is *disappointingly* limited, ahem only CERTIFIED to 20k feet?

Finally why is the tone here turning into POA?


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[Godfather]

4 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Finally why is the tone here turning into POA?
 

 

I haven't been on that site for almost a decade but your point is well taken.  I'll leave this thread with the opinion that multiple aircraft types are able to enjoy all reasonable altitudes of flight. 

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, Godfather said:

I'll leave this thread with the opinion that multiple aircraft types are able to enjoy all reasonable altitudes of flight. 

Lots of airplanes *can* do lots of things. I've had my share of airplanes including one with an IO-550. Realistically, if you plan to fly at or above 12,000 ft even once in a while, you're better off buying a turbo. If you fly above 15,000 ft regularly, pressurization is a worthwhile consideration.