Dead battery

[pkofman]

My no 1 battery on the tls keeps dying. The 2nd battery seems ok but it seems to be low as well.

It is really cold here right now.

What is the best way to boost a battery on this plane

I guess I could buy one of those little power booster packs and boost it but I don't want to blow up my avionics.

 Is there a way to isolate the electric starter  bus so that nothing is online other than the starter

 

I also have the epu plug so perhaps I should use that. Can i simply plug in an external battery type charger to that plug ( what type of plug) . The mooney manual says to only boost battery # 1 . advice please

Thoughts...Peter

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by pkofman

[carusoam]

Peter,

A known route to handling this challenge is using two things...

1) Concorde gel cell batteries

2) A device that is called a BatteryMinder.

The Concorde is known to work.  The other Brand is know to fail.

The BM is designed specifically to match the Concorde gel cell technology.  It can be purchased with additional parts to maintain two batteries at a time.  You can also get a socket so it is easy to plug the plane in wherever it is parked...

How is that?

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

1) Concorde gel cell batteries

2) A device that is called a BatteryMinder.

The Concorde is known to work.  The other Brand is know to fail.

The BM is designed specifically to match the Concorde gel cell technology.  It can be purchased with additional parts to maintain two batteries at a time.  You can also get a socket so it is easy to plug the plane in wherever it is parked...

And unfortunately Walmart doesn't stock any of this in their Aviation isle.

[carusoam]

Amazon didn't either...

I'd like to thank Gil for making the decision easier...

I don't have the Gil batteries any longer.  But I've got one of their Battery charging devices...  really nice.

unfortunately, it doesn't extend the Gil battery life...

Best regards,

-a-

[pkofman]

Maybe ill ask this question differently because it appears the battery charging system is pretty darn complex.

Ive also probably done most things incorrectly . Like starting on #2 and then switching to no 1 once the engine is running ( avionics master off )

I bought this plane about 3 months ago so this is new to me and snags have shown up including this latest being crappy performance of battery 1.

I suppose i can try to start on #2 and then just leave it there and over the  period of the flight the #1 should come up to charge again.

Here is my really specific, and  hopefully  simply question;

What is the most basic way to boost the plane  if neither battery works to start the engine  . Can you use a simple car battery pack . One  that i could pick up from a local ( canadian tire ) up here . Or do i need something more and will i simply plug this in to the EPU or directly to a battery ( no 1 )

The POH is not clear on this from what i read..

Lastly , I gather the plane will operate ( wheels will come  up , flaps will operate )  with one low battery and one that has enough juice as the alternators are working once the engine is running...

Ill figure this bird out eventually  ( and winter should be behind us very soon )

Thank you all in advance 

[LANCECASPER]

Do a capacity test on both batteries. You may end up needing two new batteries if they have been neglected. If so, get two Concorde RG 24-15.

Don't boost (jump) it to start and then take off with a low battery - you may need that sooner than you think if something goes wrong soon after take-off. If you ever go to a MAPA Homecoming and hear the presentation by the Concorde battery guy, he will tell you stories where people took off with nearly dead batteries and then ended up with in flight fires to deal with.

Don't switch batteries in flight. On odd days of the month when I fly I use battery one for startup and fly on that battery. On even days I use battery two and stick with that one.

Get with a very experienced Mooney Instructor to show you all the individual traits of the TLS so you are using it correctly and get a very experienced Mooney mechanic who works on these all the time to find out what specific maintenance you need to catch up on. The M model is a great airplane, I've had three of them, but it needs a lot of maintenance to get the most out of it. You might consider posting your logs and some on here could help you see some things that you might need to do to catch up on maintenance.

[pkofman]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

Do a capacity test on both batteries. You may end up needing two new batteries if they have been neglected. If so, get two Concorde RG 24-15.

Don't boost (jump) it to start and then take off with a low battery - you may need that sooner than you think if something goes wrong soon after take-off. If you ever go to a MAPA Homecoming and hear the presentation by the Concorde battery guy, he will tell you stories where people took off with nearly dead batteries and then ended up with in flight fires to deal with.

Don't switch batteries in flight. On odd days of the month when I fly I use battery one for startup and fly on that battery. On even days I use battery two and stick with that one.

Get with a very experienced Mooney Instructor to show you all the individual traits of the TLS so you are using it correctly and get a very experienced Mooney mechanic who works on these all the time to find out what specific maintenance you need to catch up on. The M model is a great airplane, I've had three of them, but it needs a lot of maintenance to get the most out of it. You might consider posting your logs and some on here could help you see some things that you might need to do to catch up on maintenance.

Thank you for this , to be clear.  Once i start the plane , and I see that the plane is charging in the normal range , is it then safe to fly. 

At some point, I assume a battery may be low. I would assume once started the plane is charging from the alt, and trickle charging the batteries.

Two weeks ago, battery #1  was not strong enough to start the engine. No 2 worked perfectly . I ran then engine on 2 for a while then shut down and went to no 1 .The plane was then able to be started on #1 which i assume would be in line with expectation. The fire caution above is very scary but is the behaviour I  note in this comment normal and as expected. I have no interest in taking any unnecessary risk. This is my third mooney and ive never had this issue before.

Peter

 

[carusoam]

+1 for the capacity test.  It is done at annual and a good thing on PPIs.  Get a feeling about how strong the battery really is.

It would be unwise to take a completely dead battery and try to charge it by flying with it.  It is a lot of work that is Best done by a battery charger.

I have not heard about any GA aircraft battery fires, yet...  lithium ion batteries may have a way of changing things... 

Battery health is better when slow charged.  It takes a better, more complete charge this way.

A fast charge will look like it is 100% charged, but will diminish significantly over a shorter period of time....

Departing into IMC with an unknown in the system is always a question.  What drained the battery to begin with? Why isn't it charging properly...

If it is a Gill battery older than two years, get a different battery.  Not just a new battery...

Best regards,

-a-

[pkofman]

Thanks again. Well I don't know what caused no 1 to die but i admit I have  not flown much this month. Weather is pretty awful  etc.  But my no 2 starts the plane perfectly. And if I simply leave it in that position 2 it will charge no 1 I suppose.  etc.  I should be good to go ( not flying heavy Ifr. ) so I'm just curious to see if the warmer weather makes things better or if this continues I'll change the battery.  I'll have a look next time I'm in the plane. My alternators seemingly are working well  The annual is not until sept.  So I have one perfect battery and one that is having trouble charging.  

Thank You for all of the thoughts.  

Peter

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, pkofman said:

Thanks again. Well I don't know what caused no 1 to die but i admit I have  not flown much this month. Weather is pretty awful  etc.  But my no 2 starts the plane perfectly. And if I simply leave it in that position 2 it will charge no 1 I suppose.  etc.  I should be good to go ( not flying heavy Ifr. ) so I'm just curious to see if the warmer weather makes things better or if this continues I'll change the battery.  I'll have a look next time I'm in the plane. My alternators seemingly are working well  The annual is not until sept.  So I have one perfect battery and one that is having trouble charging.  

Thank You for all of the thoughts.  

Peter

Peter,

Swing by my shop and we can take a look at it for you.  I can loan you a new Concorde while we see what's up with your old one, we can change it back up and do a capacity check on it.

Clarence

[pkofman]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Peter,

Swing by my shop and we can take a look at it for you.  I can loan you a new Concorde while we see what's up with your old one, we can change it back up and do a capacity check on it.

Clarence

Clarence > Sorry but i do not know where you are located.. What I'm curious about is what would be draining the battery while its just sitting on the ground . Perhaps they are just old and cold   thanks 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, pkofman said:

Clarence > Sorry but i do not know where you are located.. What I'm curious about is what would be draining the battery while its just sitting on the ground . Perhaps they are just old and cold   thanks 

Peter,

10 Mooney minutes away at CYKF.  It's possible that it is simply an old tired battery, a bit of diagnosis will sort it out.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Things that drain batteries...

Internal electrical drain...  only takes a month or two to cut the amount of starting power in half...

memory devices.  FF/gallons used, radios, and JPI all have some memory requiring electricity...

leaving a car or plane unused will have a dead battery pretty quickly... keeps the kids from starting things without asking a day in advance...  

+1 for Clarence's advice.  He is your local Mooney maintenance guru...

Best regards,

-a-

[pkofman]

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Things that drain batteries...

Internal electrical drain...  only takes a month or two to cut the amount of starting power in half...

memory devices.  FF/gallons used, radios, and JPI all have some memory requiring electricity...

leaving a car or plane unused will have a dead battery pretty quickly... keeps the kids from starting things without asking a day in advance...  

+1 for Clarence's advice.  He is your local Mooney maintenance guru...

Best regards,

-a-

Awesome help !

[pkofman]

7 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Peter,

10 Mooney minutes away at CYKF.  It's possible that it is simply an old tired battery, a bit of diagnosis will sort it out.

Clarence

Hi Clarence I will plan to come over for a visit . It would be nice to meet in person.. Maybe sometime this week once the weather clears after the march madness snow storm expected the next few day. It would be great  to chat about planes..Would like your thoughts on CGGPG  .. Please send me location details to my email , pkofman at me dot com    . Remember this is all dependant on me getting the plane started !!!!!Thanks..

Pete