Foreflight Legal for IFR Navigation?

[Ned Gravel]

I am reminded of the one simple requirement my instrument instructor called to my attention as I was finishing my instrument rating some 14 years ago.  “You are flying IFR only when a needle is centred.”

All we have to do is pick the device that will do that for us.  But no one will get criticised for being creative and saving lives when SHTF.  For example, if an iPad is all that is left and it provides a bearing, or a track, or a heading to safety, I would follow that on my compass. It is certified to do that very thing. 
 

But that is just me.

[carusoam]

Foreflight has the ability to put a waas accurate blue dot on an approach plate…

Indicating your location on the plate…

Really good for situational awareness… not so good for actual navigation… unless it’s the only thing you got left…

But, iPads have a way of running out of power at the worst times…

Be ready to whip out the next i-device and cord as needed… 

 

Keep in mind… it isn’t mirroring anything on the instrument panel…

It will require a WAAS source that is often a low cost portable device like a stratus…

Be on the lookout for portable ADSB -in devices…  you get weather and traffic with them…

hundreds of these are used around here… maybe even thousands…

lately they come with CO monitors too…

PP thoughts only, not a cfii…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

To have a panel device communicate position with your iPad…

Look for it to have WiFi or BlueTooth out capabilities…

There are a couple of Transponder devices that may do this…

 

Expect that Garmin and it’s navigation app might have put in the extra effort to make this a reality…

Garmin would prefer to sell installed equipment… than an iPad app…

Getting BT to work from the back of the plane has had its issues…as well….

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

I have a Flight Stream 510.  So my iPad with ForeFlight is getting GPS data from my 650Xi and ADSB in from my GTX-345.

 

[T. Peterson]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:19 PM, Ned Gravel said:

I am reminded of the one simple requirement my instrument instructor called to my attention as I was finishing my instrument rating some 14 years ago.  “You are flying IFR only when a needle is centred.”

All we have to do is pick the device that will do that for us.  But no one will get criticised for being creative and saving lives when SHTF.  For example, if an iPad is all that is left and it provides a bearing, or a track, or a heading to safety, I would follow that on my compass. It is certified to do that very thing. 
 

But that is just me.

I know I am late to this, but that is a great line, “You are flying IFR only when a needle is centered.” Both clever and true!

[N201MKTurbo]

11 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I know I am late to this, but that is a great line, “You are flying IFR only when a needle is centered.” Both clever and true!

Huh, On the way back from New Orleans last week, I had to deviate around weather quite a bit. I was IFR and the needle was rarely centered. I requested deviations right of course. I was cleared for whatever deviations necessary and to inform them when I was direct to my destination. 45 minutes later they called and asked if I was ever going to be direct to my destination. I said "In about 10 minutes" they said OK let us know. The weather was building faster than the airplane was flying.

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Huh, On the way back from New Orleans last week, I had to deviate around weather quite a bit. I was IFR and the needle was rarely centered. I requested deviations right of course. I was cleared for whatever deviations necessary and to inform them when I was direct to my destination. 45 minutes later they called and asked if I was ever going to be direct to my destination. I said "In about 10 minutes" they said OK let us know. The weather was building faster than the airplane was flying.

The point was……never mind, you got me.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Huh, On the way back from New Orleans last week, I had to deviate around weather quite a bit. I was IFR and the needle was rarely centered. I requested deviations right of course. I was cleared for whatever deviations necessary and to inform them when I was direct to my destination. 45 minutes later they called and asked if I was ever going to be direct to my destination. I said "In about 10 minutes" they said OK let us know. The weather was building faster than the airplane was flying.

I've done the same while flying IMC. Sometimes you just need to. 

[rbp]

28 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

The point was……never mind, you got me.

I think the point is that a heading or a vector is off your course, and if you suddenly go nordo, you’ve got to get that needle centered again. 

[N201MKTurbo]

41 minutes ago, rbp said:

I think the point is that a heading or a vector is off your course, and if you suddenly go nordo, you’ve got to get that needle centered again. 

So, let’s say I went NORDO while deviating. My last clearance was to deviate as necessary and then direct. So I would keep deviating till I was clear of the weather and then go direct. They will just have to figure out where I’m at. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I've done the same while flying IMC. Sometimes you just need to. 

When I was younger I would have just plowed through that stuff. I’m to old for that now, besides, I’ve gotten whacked in there a few times. Been there, done that, don’t need to do it again.

[rbp]

44 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, let’s say I went NORDO while deviating. My last clearance was to deviate as necessary and then direct. So I would keep deviating till I was clear of the weather and then go direct. They will just have to figure out where I’m at. 

Yes, agreed, direct to the nest fix. with the needle centered. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, let’s say I went NORDO while deviating. My last clearance was to deviate as necessary and then direct. So I would keep deviating till I was clear of the weather and then go direct. They will just have to figure out where I’m at. 

 

17 minutes ago, rbp said:

Yes, agreed, direct to the nest fix. with the needle centered. 

Nay, if I'm deviating for weather and go NORDO, I'm not turning Direct To anywhere--I'll finish my deviation then continue as closely as possible to Direct to Destination from wherever that point is.

[Ned Gravel]

When deviating, I change my heading bug to the course deviation assigned by ATC and set George to follow that.  HSI and compass both have centered needles at that point. I am good. 
 

NORDO or loss of comms procedure is a separate issue.  Made easier by their knowing I have wx on board (albeit 6 to 12 minutes behind). They will expect me to turn to the last expected waypoint when I feel it is safe, if I am squawking 7600.  I can do that. 

[PT20J]

So, I learned something. Next time I get a radar vector off course, I'll just have to reply, "Unable, I'm IFR."

[T. Peterson]

3 hours ago, rbp said:

I think the point is that a heading or a vector is off your course, and if you suddenly go nordo, you’ve got to get that needle centered again. 

Not exactly what I was thinking, but close enough. Thank you!

[T. Peterson]

54 minutes ago, PT20J said:

So, I learned something. Next time I get a radar vector off course, I'll just have to reply, "Unable, I'm IFR."

You guys are hilarious! Let’s just think about the context of Ned’s instructor. He is an instrument instructor that has just signed off or is in the process of signing off an IFR newbie. Is it remotely possible his point is that in the IFR environment a pilot must be always situationally aware, knowing where he is going and why? Of course I may be wrong. Maybe he really did mean you always had to have a centered needle because even though he was an instructor he may have never heard of a radar vector? I have postulated, you decide.

[larryb]

I have no shortage of TSO'd GPS receivers. 2 GTN 650's and 2 Aspens with their backup GPS receivers. I also have two portables, a 796 and my trusty iPad. One day I"m on a trip from CA to MT and all of my expensive panel mounted and IFR legal GPS receivers go off line somewhere in Nevada or Oregon. Not a big surprise because I'd been hearing aircraft ahead of me complaining about the same problem to ATC. And it was VFR. I  suppose it was military testing. The one GPS that never lost signal, the iPad. 

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

You guys are hilarious!

I think that's the point. I'm sure everyone knows what he meant and are just having fun with what he said.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, larryb said:

I have no shortage of TSO'd GPS receivers. 2 GTN 650's and 2 Aspens with their backup GPS receivers. I also have two portables, a 796 and my trusty iPad. One day I"m on a trip from CA to MT and all of my expensive panel mounted and IFR legal GPS receivers go off line somewhere in Nevada or Oregon. Not a big surprise because I'd been hearing aircraft ahead of me complaining about the same problem to ATC. And it was VFR. I  suppose it was military testing. The one GPS that never lost signal, the iPad. 

Exactly!

Having the cellular version of the iPad gives you other satellite constellations, and since you're using it for a back-up, why not have a back-up for the satellites as well. People debate about this all the time about whether or not they really need the cellular version. They say, "how often does that really happen?". Once is often enough. For the extra $100-150, considering you get at least half of that difference back when you sell it down the road, IMHO the decision is easy. Even if the iPad is linked to a portable ads-b/gps I still want the GPS chip on the iPad.

[N201MKTurbo]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Exactly!

Having the cellular version of the iPad gives you other satellite constellations, and since you're using it for a back-up, why not have a back-up for the satellites as well. People debate about this all the time about whether or not they really need the cellular version. They say, "how often does that really happen?". Once is often enough. For the extra $100-150, considering you get at least half of that difference back when you sell it down the road, IMHO the decision is easy. Even if the iPad is linked to a portable ads-b/gps I still want the GPS chip on the iPad.

Last time I checked (last week) there were still VOR stations all over the place. And they still work!

[T. Peterson]

39 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I think that's the point. I'm sure everyone knows what he meant and are just having fun with what he said.

I am not fully convinced, but I will certainly grant the benefit of the doubt.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Last time I checked (last week) there were still VOR stations all over the place. And they still work!

Where I typically fly, about half of the VORs have gone away since 2007. The ones remaining work, unless it's on the shutdown list (which we don't see), they are often not maintained prior to the official going away date.

You can pay extra to get a GPS-enabled iPad to workmwith your annual ForeFlight subscription, or you can buy any Samsung tablet, even a $100 cheapie, as they all have GPS chips; since FF is ios only, try out a free EFB like Avare or FlightPlanGo.

Or stay with the herd and shell out the money, it's your choice. 

[rbp]

worth reading this again:

 

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-B/subject-group-ECFRef6e8c57f580cfd/section-91.185#p-91.185(c)

 

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

You can pay extra to get a GPS-enabled iPad to workmwith your annual ForeFlight subscription, or you can buy any Samsung tablet, even a $100 cheapie, as they all have GPS chips; since FF is ios only, try out a free EFB like Avare or FlightPlanGo.

Or stay with the herd and shell out the money, it's your choice. 

Exactly, we all get to make our own choice.

The reason the herd goes with them is that they just work and there's one hardware maker and it's the same as the one software maker, so the updates work across the platform. That's Foreflight's reason and that's why Garmin says that the Pilot app on iOS is leaps and bounds ahead of the other platform.

But since I've used both and, to me, there's no comparison in stability and quality of apps available, my choice is to use what I like and everyone else can do the same. The fact that we are all unique and we like different things makes the world a much more interesting place.