Introduction

[Oscar Avalle]

Marcus, welcome on board! I fly a M20C. I love my plane... however if I could do it all over again i would have tried to get a J model. More space, useful load and stronger engine. 

[ArtVandelay]

To be fair, you would need to save about $500/yr to save up for those Lyc angled-valve cylinders on the IO, compared to the half-price cylinders on the O-360.

So, 4 cylinders, $2000 vs $1000, you are saying cylinders only last 8 years? Assume they last 2000 hrs, you save 1.4gph* which is $14,000 at $5/gal.

* The difference in fuel flow from J POH for 150kt settings at 8000'

[Andy95W]

4 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

So, 4 cylinders, $2000 vs $1000, you are saying cylinders only last 8 years? Assume they last 2000 hrs, you save 1.4gph* which is $14,000 at $5/gal.

* The difference in fuel flow from J POH for 150kt settings at 8000'

TJ, I'm pretty sure it was at least a little tongue-in-cheek.  I'm not going to start an argument about which is better, the C or the J.  

All I really know is that Mooneys are most efficient:

M20J = most miles per gallon

M20C = most miles per $ (including acquisition cost, maintenance, cylinders, etc.)

[Guest]

We're all more likely to need a new camshaft long before Lycoming cylinder give out.  New ones at overhaul generally go the distance to the next overhaul.

Clarence 

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, supersoldier71 said:

Hi Bob,

The budget has a little flex in it and the J is a good option, but what concerned me about Js was that they seemed to have less useful load as compared to even E, which is down compared to Cs and Fs.

My mission is a little funny in that we need to be able to haul two people from Fayetteville, NC to Nashville, TN (2GC to KJWN: 457 statute miles), OR three people (my sister in law has been incredibly supportive, and is ready to go halfsies on avgas) from Augusta, GA to Nashville, 340 miles.  The Fayetteville to Nashville leg being the longest we project, the Augusta to anyplace leg being the heaviest.

 

Marcus

Marcus,

All models of the Mooney are good.  I did not mean to knock a C model by any means.  And it is hard to beat manual gear (which you cannot get in a J).  With that said...

What kind of weights are you talking about?  Your longest leg listed there is 457 sm which is 398 nm.  My burn in a J including climb would be about 26 gallons.  Add 10 gallons for reserve, and I would need to get airborne with 36 gallons.  That's 210 lbs.  My J has a useful load of 970 lbs.  That leaves 760 lbs for people and bags.  Even if I max out the baggage compartment at 120 lbs, that leaves 640 lbs for people.  That's 3 people at 213 lbs each or 4 people at 160 lbs each.  Even if you want to make fueling easy and fill to the 50 gallon tabs, that still leaves 560 lbs for people.  And filling to 50 gallons will take you 600 nm (690 sm) in four hours.

Just saying.

Bob

[ArtVandelay]

We're all more likely to need a new camshaft long before Lycoming cylinder give out.  New ones at overhaul generally go the distance to the next overhaul.
Clarence 

Would you have your cylinders overhauled instead of buying new?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Would you have your cylinders overhauled instead of buying new?

At engine overhaul time I'd be using new ones.  Keep in mind that I'll need 8 angle valve cylinders, ouch.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

6 hours ago, supersoldier71 said:

Hi Bob,

The budget has a little flex in it and the J is a good option, but what concerned me about Js was that they seemed to have less useful load as compared to even E, which is down compared to Cs and Fs.

My mission is a little funny in that we need to be able to haul two people from Fayetteville, NC to Nashville, TN (2GC to KJWN: 457 statute miles), OR three people (my sister in law has been incredibly supportive, and is ready to go halfsies on avgas) from Augusta, GA to Nashville, 340 miles.  The Fayetteville to Nashville leg being the longest we project, the Augusta to anyplace leg being the heaviest.

 

Marcus

Any Mooney will easily meet your mission requirements. I doubt you'll find a Mooney that cannot carry 600# plus fuel for at least 5-600 nm with IFR fuel reserves.

And the other Bob's impression that Js have better avionics than Cs or Es is probably mistaken. Most Js are now 30 to 40 years old. Frankly, there's little advantage to a J's original panel over the stock vintage models from 10 to 20 years earlier. There are many Mooneys from each model and era that now sport avionics more up to date than Ovations and Bravos that are 15 years old. 

E.g., this is my 51 year old E, others here have Fs and Cs with similar panels in air frames that have been modified and well cared for.  

[ArtVandelay]

And the other Bob's impression that Js have better avionics than Cs or Es is probably mistaken. Most Js are now 30 to 40 years old. Frankly, there's little advantage to a J's original panel over the stock vintage models from 10 to 20 years earlier. There are many Mooneys
E.g., this is my 51 year old E, others here have Fs and Cs with similar panels in air frames that have been modified and well cared for.  

One advantage of the J that even your upgraded panel doesn't have is a modern yoke.

[Marauder]

One advantage of the J that even your upgraded panel doesn't have is a modern yoke.

But my F does.



To further Bob's point, there are a number of older Mooneys better equipped than later model ones. Just depends on who owns them and what have been done to them. I have recently flown in two J models that are still sporting circle 1980 technologies.


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[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

One advantage of the J that even your upgraded panel doesn't have is a modern yoke.

Actually, it could have had fat and fancy but like the Es manual gear, hydraulic flaps, and manual speed brakes, I do not think the J's are better, just more conplex. I would not mind getting my simple yokes restored cosmetically but I have no interest in fat or covered handles blocking my view of the lower panel and getting in the way when I'm tuning the Aspen, etc. My yoke are approximately the diameter of the grips on my golf clubs. IOW, perfect. 

[supersoldier71]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Marcus,

All models of the Mooney are good.  I did not mean to knock a C model by any means.  And it is hard to beat manual gear (which you cannot get in a J).  With that said...

What kind of weights are you talking about?  Your longest leg listed there is 457 sm which is 398 nm.  My burn in a J including climb would be about 26 gallons.  Add 10 gallons for reserve, and I would need to get airborne with 36 gallons.  That's 210 lbs.  My J has a useful load of 970 lbs.  That leaves 760 lbs for people and bags.  Even if I max out the baggage compartment at 120 lbs, that leaves 640 lbs for people.  That's 3 people at 213 lbs each or 4 people at 160 lbs each.  Even if you want to make fueling easy and fill to the 50 gallon tabs, that still leaves 560 lbs for people.  And filling to 50 gallons will take you 600 nm (690 sm) in four hours.

Just saying.

Bob

Didn't take it as a knock at all my friend, just took it as solid information from someone who knows more than I do about this topic.

 

Your math does indeed indicate that other than a Mite, we'd be G2G whichever model we end up with; the only issue with the J and the budget, and it is relatively minor is that because we have a fixed monthly aviation budget, we'd have to save longer for a larger--perhaps much larger--down payment to bring the monthly note back to where we want it to be.  This is not a deal breaker, just a factor in the equation.

Now had you suggested on Ovation....

All models, C through J are attractive options compared to the other makes and models on my shopping list because with my budget projections, we can still keep it in the air 10-12 hours per month with $5.50 avgas, whereas some of the thirstier examples would limit hours, which would limit usefulness, which throws the entire equation out of whack.

[ArtVandelay]

but I have no interest in fat or covered handles blocking my view of the lower panel and getting in the way when I'm tuning the Aspen, etc. My yoke are approximately the diameter of the grips on my golf clubs. IOW, perfect. 

Not sure why they would block or get in the way, unless your seating position is different, as in Marauders pix above, they are low enough to see over them. I don't have an Aspen so I would have to think about that, I have a mini iPad on yoke as well.

[Bob_Belville]

25 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Not sure why they would block or get in the way, unless your seating position is different, as in Marauders pix above, they are low enough to see over them. I don't have an Aspen so I would have to think about that, I have a mini iPad on yoke as well.

I sit in the captain's seat. Take my word for it, the yoke is between me and the panel. The Aspen knobs are at the bottom of the instrument and the pilot, this pilot at least, has to reach over or under the yoke depending upon which button or knob needs tweaking. And I would never put anything bigger than the clock on the yoke.

But hey, TEHO.

[Marauder]

Not sure why they would block or get in the way, unless your seating position is different, as in Marauders pix above, they are low enough to see over them. I don't have an Aspen so I would have to think about that, I have a mini iPad on yoke as well.

I sit in the captain's seat. Take my word for it, the yoke is between me and the panel. The Aspen knobs are at the bottom of the instrument and the pilot, this pilot at least, has to reach over or under the yoke depending upon which button or knob needs tweaking. And I would never put anything bigger than the clock on the yoke.
But hey, TEHO.

Bob and I have met. He is a bit shorter than me so I find it easier to look over not only the yoke but the iPad attached to it. When I go in for my ADS-B upgrade, I will however have the Aspens recessed to provide another inch or so clearance to allow me to use my yoke guard without fear of hitting the knobs on the Aspens.


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[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

 

Bob and I have met. He is a bit shorter than me so I find it easier to look over not only the yoke but the iPad attached to it. When I go in for my ADS-B upgrade, I will however have the Aspens recessed to provide another inch or so clearance to allow me to use my yoke guard without fear of hitting the knobs on the Aspens.


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Yes, I'm a lot shorter than Chris - I sit on a 2" cushion - but my issue is less line of sight as it is hands/arms. I would think I have an advantage in that I'm sitting closer to the panel than tall pilots. I take off and land with the seat in the 2nd hole back. I usually slide it back a couple of notches when in cruise if there's no one sitting behind me.. 

[ArtVandelay]

I use the 5th hole, no cushion, but the seat back is in the most upright position, and at 6ft have no problem accessing HSI heading,course knobs, I reach over the top. But I don't have glass, I use the iPad as a poor mans glass panel.