Cav ice protection system

[Bravoman]

Was hoping for some info from any folks who might have had an aftermarket FIKI system installed on their Mooney by this outfit. I inquired of them what it would entail and received a prompt and thorough response. The estimated all in cost seems steep at 60k, but I noticed from looking at the Mooney website that the option costs 63k or so when that box is checked when buying a new Ovation or Acclaim. I am giving it some thought as I do plan on keeping my plane and have, after replacing most components and an avionics upgrade, gotten it in pretty much the way I want it. Any input on the installation process and functionality of the system would be appreciated. Btw, they claim no diminution in performance of the aircraft after the system is installed. 

Thanks as always. 

Regard, Frank

[exM20K]

Financially, it is probably better to trade for a FIKI aircraft rather than to do an installation.  Used values are bumped by maybe $20k for TKS, and you can buy a discounted avionics upgrade at the same time or at least find a similar setup to what you've built.  Or you can convert yours knowing that you won't get back more than half the spend.

I installed non-fiki on my 231 20 years ago, and IIRC, it was something like $17,000.  It was worth every penny to me since I commuted in the Northeast in the Mooney.  There is a speed penalty of 8-ish knots that I've observed on both the Acclaim and the 231.  That speed loss seems less at high altitudes, which makes sense given the lower IAS up high.

 

TKS is also a leading-edge paint saver.  The panels take the hit from rain, so you won't get the bald spots many Mooney's have on the leading edge.

 

[Mooney13]

Hello,

I have TKS FIKI on my Ovation I purchased last August. I did not install it, but bought it already installed.

I used it for the first time last weekend flying over the cascade mountains from Seattle to Idaho and was very impressed by it's performance. I was in Moderate to Heavy icing and would have been in a real situation without it. It cleared my wing nicely and pretty quick. This area of the country is about as bad as it gets...

The only issue I found, was making sure you have fluid at your destination, or carry a little to refill with you. Which obviously can eat useful load.

I used a bit too much fluid because I intentionally stayed in the icing longer than I would next time so that I could learn the system and test it's performance.

I am glad I went with the TKS system.

Good luck!

 

[milotron]

6 minutes ago, Mooney13 said:

Hello,

I have TKS FIKI on my Ovation I purchased last August. I did not install it, but bought it already installed.

I used it for the first time last weekend flying over the cascade mountains from Seattle to Idaho and was very impressed by it's performance. I was in Moderate to Heavy icing and would have been in a real situation without it. It cleared my wing nicely and pretty quick. This area of the country is about as bad as it gets...

The only issue I found, was making sure you have fluid at your destination, or carry a little to refill with you. Which obviously can eat useful load.

I used a bit too much fluid because I intentionally stayed in the icing longer than I would next time so that I could learn the system and test it's performance.

I am glad I went with the TKS system.

Good luck!

 

I have non-FIKI on my M20K that was installed in the early 90s along with the 252 upgrade. Fortunately I have used it only a couple of times and had the same experience: it cleared the wings surprisingly fast. Having the turbo is nice to get over or climb through the layer quickly.

I am still new to the aircraft and trying to increase the utility of it but living in the same area, there seems to be no shortage of icing conditions this time of year. I am still learning to read the weather as to what is a 'real' icing threat versus the blanket icing warnings over large areas of BC and Washington state.

 

Even after all this time, the panels are in great condition and seems to work well.  I also put the 5 gallon jug in the back for unexpected top-ups at the destination airport. TKS fluid can be very hard to come by.

[Mooney13]

40 minutes ago, milotron said:

I have non-FIKI on my M20K that was installed in the early 90s along with the 252 upgrade. Fortunately I have used it only a couple of times and had the same experience: it cleared the wings surprisingly fast. Having the turbo is nice to get over or climb through the layer quickly.

I am still new to the aircraft and trying to increase the utility of it but living in the same area, there seems to be no shortage of icing conditions this time of year. I am still learning to read the weather as to what is a 'real' icing threat versus the blanket icing warnings over large areas of BC and Washington state.

 

Even after all this time, the panels are in great condition and seems to work well.  I also put the 5 gallon jug in the back for unexpected top-ups at the destination airport. TKS fluid can be very hard to come by.

I hear you on "blanket" vs "real" icing. This time of year over here you can count on some icing in the forecast almost all days! Nice to have that TKS in the "back pocket"!
safe flying!

[FoxMike]

I bought a TLS with the factory install TKS.  I do not use it much but when I need it it really does the job.  If you want "dispatch reliability" the TKS is worthwhile.  Most of the time the ice is light and you can rely on the turbo to get up out of the clouds but on some occasions you get ice in the flight levels.  If you already have a load from the climb out you do have a immediate problem.  Having TKS makes flight planning easier and encounters with moderate ice less intense.  I have had two other booted airplanes which I found to be adequate except for a surprise encounter with freezing rain.  I have no idea how TKS works in freezing rain.  

A friend with a TLS and I flew wing tip to wing tip at the same power.  He was able to get ahead of me but not by too much.  I think the performance loss is 3-5 knots at 70% power.  

I am glad that the system was installed before I bought the airplane ($40K option in 1999).  Like you I intend to keep the TLS for a long time.  It certainly has maintenance issues which Textron should deal with but Textron is clearly interested in profit before a product they can be proud of.  Good luck in your decision.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by FoxMike
misspell

[peevee]

Do they even do the non-fiki installation anymore? I thought I read cav didn't bother with it at all these days. I could justify it for 30k-ish

Edited December 11, 2016 by peevee

[M016576]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

Do they even do the non-fiki installation anymore? I thought I read cav didn't bother with it at all these days. I could justify it for 30k-ish

I don't think they do... the only difference between the 2 systems is the heated stall vane and the second pump. Why allow people to buy the (much) cheaper system when the install time is roughly the same. Might as well sell only the Fiki rated, and more expensive version.

[carusoam]

The FIKI system is a TKS system with a built in Plan B...

Who can afford to launch into icing conditions without a Plan B?

With ice physically Changing your wing surfaces, the stall speed changes to an unknown number. Adding an unknown amount of ice weight adds to the challenge.

Flying in icing conditions in the dark and at night must be a tad discomforting at first.  Having the ice light to see the leading edge is nice for this...

 Second tank, with a second pump, with an ice light sounds good to have before flying into known conditions.

Otherwise, the base line TKS system is the Plan B for flying out of ice.

The baseline for the decision is how do you intend to use it?

sort of a decision like 'is a single engine airplane safe to fly in the dark, in IMC, over hazardous terrain....

Yes, but how often?

Ask your statistician...?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

5 hours ago, exM20K said:

Financially, it is probably better to trade for a FIKI aircraft rather than to do an installation.  Used values are bumped by maybe $20k for TKS, and you can buy a discounted avionics upgrade at the same time or at least find a similar setup to what you've built.  Or you can convert yours knowing that you won't get back more than half the spend.

I installed non-fiki on my 231 20 years ago, and IIRC, it was something like $17,000.  It was worth every penny to me since I commuted in the Northeast in the Mooney.  There is a speed penalty of 8-ish knots that I've observed on both the Acclaim and the 231.  That speed loss seems less at high altitudes, which makes sense given the lower IAS up high.

 

TKS is also a leading-edge paint saver.  The panels take the hit from rain, so you won't get the bald spots many Mooney's have on the leading edge.

 

 I definitely agree that the 60 K is a bit hard to swallow. But, as I implied in my original post, I have accepted the fact that I would never come close to getting my money out of it if I were to sell at this point, but I did get it to the way I wanted, and I like my airframe and intend to keep it. I was wondering if anybody had experience with this company and if so what they had to say about it as well as how well their system worked.

 I really appreciate the replies thus far! 

Frank

[Bravoman]

Just now, carusoam said:

The FIKI system is a TKS system with a built in Plan B...

Who can afford to launch into icing conditions without a Plan B?

With ice physically Changing your wing surfaces, the stall speed changes to an unknown number. Adding an unknown amount of ice weight adds to the challenge.

Flying in icing conditions in the dark and at night must be a tad discomforting at first.  Having the ice light to see the leading edge is nice for this...

 Second tank, with a second pump, with an ice light sounds good to have before flying into known conditions.

Otherwise, the base line TKS system is the Plan B for flying out of ice.

The baseline for the decision is how do you intend to use it?

sort of a decision like 'is a single engine airplane safe to fly in the dark, in IMC, over hazardous terrain....

Yes, but how often?

Ask your statistician...?

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony, even if it saves me from getting my pants scared off one time it will have paid for itself a couple  times over!

 

regards, Frank

[carusoam]

Is there any other company that provides an anti-ice system based on the fluid anti-ice solutions?

Are there any de-icing boots available for laminar wings?

I think the choices may be limited...

There may be one choice.  Prop de-ice...  electric or liquid?  Both are a bit of extra maintenance if you didn't intend to use them.

 

PP logic...

1) Holding the plane for a decade or longer?  Update like you are going to use it long term...

2) Intend to fly IFR regularly throughout that decade?  Add the tools that improve the way you use it...

3) You see ice in your current flying activities.  Ice keeps you from departing.  Ice changes your flight plans.  Reasons to have an anti icing system...

4) I used a decade as the time frame, just because...  at 20 years technology changes so much many of my electronic devices are up for renewal.

5) 60amu is easy to spend on a panel improvement.  

 

Thinking out loud...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bravoman]

5 hours ago, exM20K said:

Financially, it is probably better to trade for a FIKI aircraft rather than to do an installation.  Used values are bumped by maybe $20k for TKS, and you can buy a discounted avionics upgrade at the same time or at least find a similar setup to what you've built.  Or you can convert yours knowing that you won't get back more than half the spend.

I installed non-fiki on my 231 20 years ago, and IIRC, it was something like $17,000.  It was worth every penny to me since I commuted in the Northeast in the Mooney.  There is a speed penalty of 8-ish knots that I've observed on both the Acclaim and the 231.  That speed loss seems less at high altitudes, which makes sense given the lower IAS up high.

 

TKS is also a leading-edge paint saver.  The panels take the hit from rain, so you won't get the bald spots many Mooney's have on the leading edge.

 

 I definitely agree that the 60 K is a bit hard to swallow. But, as I implied in my original post, I have accepted the fact that I would never come close to getting my money out of it if I were to sell at this point, but I did get it to the way I wanted, and I like my airframe and intend to keep it. I was wondering if anybody had experience with this company and if so what they had to say about it as well as how well their system worked.

 I really appreciate the replies thus far! 

Frank

[Cruiser]

The reassurance of FIKI system allows me to plan for most any flight.

Here I am after 45 minutes flight. Above the clouds at 8000 only spent about 10 minutes in the ice on climb and descent. Most of the climb out ice was gone by the time we started down so this is really only about 5 minutes worth. That is about 3/8" of smooth rime ice on the wing light lens, which is in between the panels. My TKS puts a smile on my face every time I fill the tank. 

 

 

[carusoam]

Tom,

Did you get a picture of the ice horn that developed on the spinner?

i have one descent through icing conditions of record... the day my O came home.

i was amazed how quickly the ice actually accumulated. The book knowledge was actually pretty accurate.

What was surprising was the mini icicle that was protruding from the tip of the spinner.  Surprising that Ice could stick there and not be tossed by the rpm's centrifugal force.  Then again chunks of ice stick pretty far out on the prop too...

Best regards,

-a-

[Cruiser]

I was surprised at how smooth the ice was. The prop blades get a pretty good dose of fluid, enough to spray back on the windshield and keep it clear.

 

[peevee]

Maybe thermawing will come along for the Mooney or some kind of nano tech coating will come along. 

[AndyFromCB]

11 minutes ago, peevee said:

Maybe thermawing will come along for the Mooney or some kind of nano tech coating will come along. 

issue with any sort of coating is the whole frame has to be covered because the last thing you want it super cooled water flowing back into various hinges on the your flight controls.

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Are there any de-icing boots available for laminar wings?

 

Laminar flow doesn't make any difference, I'm pretty positive the way TKS is implemented on Mooney, you don't have any due to the leading edge protrusion hence the speed penalty hit you don't get on a FIKI Cirrus for example where the TKS does not change the shape of the wing.

The way boots are done on TBM/Pilatus preserves laminar flow, they are inset on special leading edges as to be flush with the wing skins thus preserving laminar flow:

Edited December 12, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Bravoman said:

Anthony, even if it saves me from getting my pants scared off one time it will have paid for itself a couple  times over!

 

regards, Frank

that's some expensive pants!

... i feel the same way.

 

[Andy95W]

Frank- any chance you can write off the 60k as a business expense?

[Bravoman]

7 minutes ago, N1395W said:

Frank- any chance you can write off the 60k as a business expense?

That is an excellent thought. I appreciate it!

[Mark89114]

You can write off whatever you want, the question is will you get audited (caught....).  My accountant says anything that has aviation in the company name has higher chance of being audited.  Call the company name something like abc consulting.  And don't quote me in your audit please....

[AndyFromCB]

49 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

So how do jets manage it then with bleedair?  

It's so hot it evaporates before even hitting it or right upon impact. If any flow back remains, by design, it's forced to go under rather than over the wing where the exhaust will blow it off, at least in theory. Never seen it in practice as flying in jets has mostly been above my pay grade as in I don't ever last in corporate world long enough to get to be upper management for long. I tend to Vest In Peace and then leave/get fired as soon as possible. Maybe if I rinse and repeat this cycle a few more times, I'll buy one but for now I'm out ideas changing diapers at 3am.

The other issue with jets is total air temperature is often so high that icing is not an issue to begin with when you're climbing at 250knots.

Edited December 12, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[DVA]

I'm a fan. I have it on my TLS and use it regularly to get up and down through winter layers. I try to never purposely stay in icing conditions even though the CAV system works well. I will say that the claim of no performance loss is an unfortunate mistruth on behalf of CAV if they indeed told you that. This system will knock off 8-10 knots when you're low. I know of no owner who has seen less who did proper before and after tests. At FL200 it's about 5 knots, but the system is still worth it imho.