Information on the TSIO360-LB

[Pacapilot]

Hello All!!

i am currently in negotiations to buy a M20K, 1979 , has the -LB engine. The engine has 1530 hours on the engine, it has intercooler adn the merlyn wastegate stc. 

I have been reading about this engine adn many have said that this engine rarely goes to TBOP without a TOP or a Turbo overhaul. This engine has none but aprently it has good compressions except on one cylinder, where it has the compression in the low 60's.

 

i am looking for infromation and tips about this engine, if maybe it will be a dollar eater or it might go to TBO with a TOP in a couple of cylinders.

 

appreciate the help!!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Paca.

There is a search window that you can use to find a lot of history on things like this... The two different engine blocks, intercoolers and MP controllers are all great tools...

I think the challenge you are asking about is more an owner related question than it is an engine related question.

Many turbo aircraft (non-turbo as well) are run hard to maximize traveling speed.  Running them hard generates high CHTs, which results in increased wear...

since you are seeing one cylinder having an issue, you would want to know about the other five.  It is possible that one cylinder is seeing a higher CHT than the others.  But, that would be a reason to find out what is going on there...

Ask the seller how he ran the plane.  If he goes into deep detail about LOP, and watching TIT, and CHTs, this means he was knowledable about engine operations that extend the life of certain pieces of hardware...

If he expounds on how fast the plane climbs and cruises and it only costs a TOH every decade to fly that fast, you have the answer you are looking for.

Mooney cylinders can be a speed mod.  (Great thing to have 

As a buyer, you use the PPI to review the plane, looking for worn and broken and other un-AW items.  Dental cameras have become popular tools to take a look inside the cylinders.

This is ordinary private pilot ideas being shared, I am not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Zwaustin]

Low 60's on a turbocharged engine is no issue. Continental says down to 42 is airworthy and studies show you can get full horsepower lower even as low as 20 believe it or not. If you want a nice bird with low time engine with no top needed or worries on an overhaul anytime soon look at my ad. Call or text for any questions or information. 

 

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/16972143/1979-mooney-m20k-231

or

 

[gsxrpilot]

I certainly wouldn't buy a 231 without at least talking with Zac about his. His has got to be one of the best 231's flying today.

[jlunseth]

I am approaching TBO with mine.  I bought it at about 650 hours and it was showing signs of needing a top when I got over 1200.  For reasons not worth going into in this post, I wound up doing an IRAN at about that point.  Since then I have had nothing but great luck with the engine and it appears we are going to be able to run quite a bit over TBO.  I think the big difference is knowing how to run the engine.  Regrettably, you never know what the prior owner did with it.   You need to get your head around the fact that it is not an NA fairly quickly, and forget everything you learned about running an NA engine.  Leaning in the climb, for example, is a common NA technique.  You should not do that with a turbo unless you really know what you are doing.  You lean an NA because it stops making full power any time it is above sea level.  You make full power on takeoff in the TSIO 360 at any altitude below 22k.  The GAMI/APS people recommend full rich for takeoff and climb and that is what I do.  You also need to check the fuel flow and make sure you are in spec at full power, which is 22.5 to 24 GPH.  You need that to keep the engine cool.

One of the tricks I learned is that good air flow over the engine is very important, so no flaws in the baffle, and it helps in the summer and in hot conditions to have your mechanic set the cowl flaps to trail open slightly.  It is just as important, if you fly in cold winter temps like I do, to get them set to fully close.

 

More later

[CaptRJM]

I second knowing how to fly a turbo motor is the key to longevity.  When I purchased my 231 I knew the previous owner flew it rather hard and I was going to need a TOH in the near future.  So, I figured it into the price.  A year and 150 hours later I did a TOH at 850 hours.  Now, I'm at 1500 hours and compressions are still in the mid 70s with zero motor issues since then.  I fully expect to go beyond TBO.

If you run it cool, it will last.  Everything I have read and everyone I have talked to say the same thing, running CHTs lower than 400 is the key.  I try to keep CHT lower than 400 all the time, even in the climb.  If it goes over 400 and continues to rise I reduce the rate a little to let it cool down.  

I run 65% power and LOP in normal cruise.  Typically I get TAS of around 165 Kn burning 10 GPH.  Hottest cylinder is #2 and it is 355-360.  In the summer I set cowl flaps to be in trail, open about 1.5".

As far as the turbocharger there are differing opinions.  Personally, I let the motor cool down at idle until the TIT stabilizes.  In my way of thinking the turbocharger is cooled down enough so the cooling oil will not coke the bearings when oil flow is cut off.  Others will say that the motor is cooled during descent and landing and the motor should be shut down right away.  Which is better is always a subject of debate. I just know this has worked for me as I have never replaced a turbocharger because of bearing failure. 

[FBCK]

Which is better is always a subject of debate.

I dont think its a debate anymore, the guys over at Gami have put temperature probes on the turbo charger proving that after landing the turbo is a its coolest, and temperatures start to go up after that.

[jlunseth]

I agree that running the engine hard is a big issue.  The POH has a really high CHT redline, 460 dF.  I have seen temps on hot days in the 400-420 range, and the old thinking was that it is ok to run there.  Sometimes it is unavoidable.  But from what we know about metallurgy now, your limit should be 380.  I can usually run there except one cylinder likes to run hot.  It is not a mixture issue, it is due to the fact that the air flow design in the engine compartment is not perfect.  The left forward cylinder, for example, is directly exposed to the cowl opening so runs cool, while the right forward cylinder is partially blocked by the air intake and runs hotter.  Cooling is not necessarily an even thing in the TSIO 360, I just try to get most of the cylinders in that 380 range.

I don't use the POH settings, some of them are ok but many of them are "hot" settings.  They were thinking the cylinders could run in that 400-420 range all the time, and that leads to the 1200 hour top.  I use 100% power (NOT full throttle,which will overboost the engine) and full rich for all takeoffs and climbs, regardless of high a climb might be.  Cowl flaps full open also.  Takeoff with the intercooler is 36-37", full rich.  As you go higher, the air gets cooler, and the intercooler really starts doing its job, 100% is less, generally 34-32".  

On the compressions, the method that Conti specifies for measuring pressure is different than standard.  I don't understand it, but the basic difference is that the standard method is a peak or momentary pressure while the Conti method for the TSIO360 is more of a "hold pressure" method.  That alone typically results in lower compressions, but what someone else already said is correct, the TSIO cylinders are not considered out of spec until the compression is below 45.  That said, once we IRANd my engine and it was being well run, the pressures have consistently been in the 70's.  If tghe pressure is lower in one or two it is time to monitor the filter and get the oil tested at oil change, to make sure there are no significant changes in the "making metal" department.

[jlunseth]

PS I don't do anything about idling the turbo.  The landing in and taxi are long enough and the turbo temps all start dropping as soon as you throttle back in the pattern.  I have, on my JPI, CDT, IAT, OT, and of course CHT so I get to see what is going on with some detail.  I don't bother to watch them anymore where turbo cooling is at issue at the end of a flight.  GAMI is right, it is a nonissue.

[TargetDriver]

Hello Paca,

Welcome, I'm relatively new to the Mooney community as well having bought my first one, a 1980 K model with the -LB converted engine as well  in February, soon to be a year. I had heard all of the myths and warnings about owning a turbo plane and how difficult they are.... all bull.  We love our Mooney and it's a joy to fly. The only thing I notice different than flying something else with a CS prop is just monitoring the MP a little closer and of course the temps. From everything I've read (on this great site) and others is keeping those cylinder temps down to that magic number of 400, but even that is unavoidable at times in the hot summer...and by hot summer I mean Sacramento CA area at 105-110 deg. To manage I just slow the ascent and increase airflow, or trail the CF a bit.   I'm working with the original TiT and CHT gauges so no JP system yet so I keep it conservative when at all possible. There is an aftermarket fuel flow so that helps a lot.

My engine only had 300 hrs on it after major with a complete turbo overhaul (has aftermarket turbo with no intercooler) the next year with about 100hrs less. Other than that the plane was almost 100% virgin and in excellent condition. I'm deciding which to do first on her upgrades...perhaps a JP system to monitor first then GAMI's,  Avionics and interior in the spring.

If you're not used to flying high, you should consider it if buying the K because everything everyone says about a turbo working up high is absolutely true. For the bulk of my first 1000 hrs of flying I probably got over 5000 ft just a couple times...(crazy I know)    Now it's launch...ooops trade lingo... I mean take off and climb... 10-12k and if taking a flight longer than an hour or so its on up to 12- 16k  I made the purchase flight from MN to MO then to CA and did the long leg to CA at 12-14k only because we didn't have O2 masks yet so couldn't use the Oxygen to fully utilize the turbo performance.   195-200kias GS is always fun to see.  She cruises at 168 kias at 11.2 gph all day long, 12 gph if I need it cooled a bit. Since I don't have a JP or similar system I only run 50-75 rop with a cht at 1575.  Again, I'm fine with burning a bit more fuel to keep it cool and a bit on the rich side.

Seriously looking forward to flying East to Missouri this spring/summer and climbing to 18K or better and wringing it out.

Hope to hear you got the K.  Cheers

 

 

[Pritch]

Just a screenshot of my K at 7500 ft on a warm Oct day in CA between Eureka and Ukiah about 150kia.  Still learning the ins and outs. 84k with the LB.

Pritch                                                                 

 

[KLRDMD]

On 12/7/2016 at 10:39 PM, TargetDriver said:

She cruises at 168 kias at 11.2 gph all day long, 12 gph if I need it cooled a bit. Since I don't have a JP or similar system I only run 50-75 rop with a cht at 1575.  Again, I'm fine with burning a bit more fuel to keep it cool and a bit on the rich side.

168 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS) would be really moving. Do you mean 168 knots true airspeed (KTAS) ? I indicate about 135 kts and true at 160 kts or a bit better at 10,000 ft. But I fly very conservatively at 59% power, LOP at 9.0 GPH. I was getting 18.9 NM/gal on my trip Sunday at 11,500 ft with about a 15 kt tailwind and 180 kt groundspeed. That was with four people on board and still with a departure a bit under gross weight.

I would suggest that 50º-75º ROP is the place that intracylinder pressures are the highest and is where you are doing the most damage to the engine possible. If you're going to run ROP, 100º to 150º is preferred. Of course LOP is even better from an engine management standpoint.

I assume you mean a TIT (or maybe EGT) of 1575, not a CHT - that would be pretty hot 

My TIT runs in the mid to high 1400s at 9.0 GPH LOP.  EGTs are in the 1350º-1450º range and CHTs are in the 300º-330º range.

Going to 9.5 GPH (62% power, LOP) adds 5 KTAS and adding another 0.5 GPH to 10.0 GPH (65% power, LOP) adds another 5 KTAS to that so I get about 170 KTAS at 10.0 GPH, still less than 145 KIAS though.

I won't cruise a TSIO-360 series engine at greater than 65% power and pretty much have no use for ROP operations in cruise in any event. This is my 5th TSIO-360 series engine so I have some familiarity with them.

[TargetDriver]

KLRDMD, Yep, you're correct.  I'm in Northern Sweden currently and working 15 hr days on a flight test pgm.  That's the kind of mistakes that warrant no flight operations after being up all night and using all my brain reserves for work. Ha 

We use KIAS and KCAS for my work flying...here that's above Mach .7 at FL30 or higher.  (Yes we do use KTAS occasionally)  And yes that would have been TiT. My CHT 's are in the 330-350 range.

I've read several lengthy accounts from a Mooney factory test pilot and he recommended 31in/2500 rpm for suggested cruise settings. (pasted below)   His settings (+50 deg ROP) indicate the intracylinder pressure zone that you refer to as being most damaging.  I'm curious as to the delta in information if that was from Mooney flight test data, for a non-intercooled engine.  Has there been some additional longevity testing that has suggested otherwise since the original factory testing?  That was most of my flying after I got the plane.

Suggested Cruise Power Setting - Model M20K (231) Non-Intercooled Engines

Any Altitude and OAT Manifold Pressure	RPM	Mixture Setting	Cowl Flaps	Approx. Fuel Flow
31" Hg	2500	Peak TIT + 50 deg. Rich	Full Closed	11.5-12.5 GPH

   

Perhaps offline we could talk more about the LOP operations ??  I'm always open to improving and there's plenty of room for that with me and my Mooney. I've not ran the LOP settings because I have not installed an aftermarket engine monitoring system yet.

My apologies Paca, sure didn't mean to sideline your thread. Will be happy to move it offline...but I have been wanting to get much deeper into this.

T

[KSMooniac]

Best course of action for any piston pilot/owner is to take the seminar at www.advancedpilot.com. many threads on this here...you won't be disappointed!

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

APS is a great resource.  They instrumented an engine and actually measured the ICPs.  Their graphs are pretty interesting and easy to absorb.

There are a couple of threads regarding turbo ops in Moonies around here.  Find a thread that discusses LOP with a turbo.  This will bring out the handful of writers with the experience you are looking for.

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Just to be clear on the difference between Paca's engine and TargetDrivers, it appears to me that TargetDriver has a nonintercooled engine and the OP's question is about an intercooled engine.  The cruise MP and any other MP in the nonintercooled TSIO360-LB will be higher than in the intercooled engine.  You get a chart with the intercooler, at least you are supposed to, which allows you to use the POH setting for the nonintercooled engine and adjust it downward based on the differential temp. caused by the intercooler.  I have readouts on my JPI for both Compressor Discharge Temp., which is the temp coming out of the turbo and before the intercooler, and Induction Air Temp., which is the temp after the intercooler.  As you might expect, it varies quite a bit.  On takeoff there is initially not much cooling air flowing over the intercooler and not much of a differential temp.  But at cruise with the plane going anywhere from 145-175 TAS (depending on altitude and power setting), the differential temp. is around 100 dF or better.  In other words the air coming out of the turbo is cooled by around 100 degrees Fahrenheit.  The cooling effect is enough that, although there is a CDT redline for the nonintercooled engine of 280 dF, that redline is for all practical purposes irrelevant in the intercooled engine.  The CDT redline is not to protect the turbo - the TIT redline does that - the CDT redline in the nonintercooled engine protects the cylinders from going into detonation because the induction air temp is too high.  In the intercooled engine, with the IAT lower than the CDT by roughly 100 degrees, the CDT could go to, say 300, and the IAT would still be around 200, well below the protective redline.  Frankly, I am not sure how someone can fly an nonintercooled K above 18,000 for most of the year, because at some point above that level and in anything approaching standard temp., the CDT will hit redline before you get to the service ceiling of the aircraft or anything approaching it.  In the intercooled aircraft you can fly anywhere within the flight envelope of the aircraft and not worry about the CDT redline.  I don't like going about 21k, but that has nothing to do with the temps in the engine, it has to do with the rapid drop in time to useful consciousness if your O2 system decides it does not like you anymore.  Exactly how much cooling there is depends on OAT and air density, so it varies.  As a lot of people who know Mooneys will tell you, the cooling does not have all of the effect it is given credit for in the tables.  In other words, if the table tells you to use 4" less MP than what is in the POH for the nonintercooled engine, that 4" will give you less power than the POH setting would in a nonintercooled engine.  I don't use the POH numbers, my JPI has an algorithm for percent horsepower, it is not the most accurate readout either, it is about 7-8 percentage points less than actual power.  But I use it as at least a rough indicator when I am running ROP, which is not that often anymore.  My comparable setting to TargetDrivers would be in the 29-30" range, but not 31", that would be quite a lot of HP, probably over 80%. 

But the really important point is that if you have the intercooled engine, you don't want to be using the POH settings without some adjustment downward.  The POH's 40" on takeoff give you an overboosted engine if it is intercooled.  I use 36-37" on takeoff and I drop the MP into the 35-36" range pretty quickly after liftoff, to avoid overboost. 

When LOP you don't have to worry about the tables because LOP HP is determined by fuel flow, not HP.  For the TSIO360LB the multiplier is 13.7 (it varies with compression ratio, so someone with a different engine should not use this multiplier).  My engine is happy right around 11 gph x 13.7 = 150.7 HP divided by 210 is about 71%.  65% is probably nicer to the engine and if I weren't near TBO I would probably use it, but I want the speed.  As far as temps go, I watch the TIT and keep it under 1600, if it gets up to 1600 I do something about it.  And I watch the CHT's of course, anything over 400 requires action, and I prefer 380.  I find that things just run too hot in the summer when I am somewhere above 12k, so I run ROP up there.  I agree, 50-75 ROP is the wrong place to run any engine.  You get plenty of power out of the TSIO360LB in that range and it is tempting to run there, the CHT's may even be good, but you are just about at max. ICP and you don't want to be there.  Either be over 100 degrees ROP (I like 125), or over 20 degrees LOP (and 30 is better if you can get there). 

[KLRDMD]

12 hours ago, TargetDriver said:

I've read several lengthy accounts from a Mooney factory test pilot and he recommended 31in/2500 rpm for suggested cruise settings. (pasted below)   His settings (+50 deg ROP) indicate the intracylinder pressure zone that you refer to as being most damaging.  I'm curious as to the delta in information if that was from Mooney flight test data, for a non-intercooled engine.  Has there been some additional longevity testing that has suggested otherwise since the original factory testing?  That was most of my flying after I got the plane.

Perhaps offline we could talk more about the LOP operations ??  I'm always open to improving and there's plenty of room for that with me and my Mooney. I've not ran the LOP settings because I have not installed an aftermarket engine monitoring system yet.

When Bob Kromer wrote that about 50º ROP, that was the standard practice but since then (and truly, many years before then too) LOP is all the rage   As has been mentioned, Advanced Pilot Seminars is the place to go to learn about LOP operations. Happy to talk about LOP on line or off line.

I would argue that an engine monitor is not necessary for LOP operations. In cruise set up 30" MP, 2500 RPM and pull the mixture back to 9.0 GPH. If it runs smoothly, leave it there and just verify that the engine values you can monitor are OK.

[jlunseth]

A couple of things.  First, I forget to mention that I use a higher MP than would be normal for ROP, when I am running LOP.  LOP simply means that the mixture is leaner than the stoichiometric mixture at or around peak.  There are two ways to get leaner, either put in less fuel for the same amount of air (i.e. MP), or put in more air while holding fuel flow at a specific level.  I do some of both, and generally run at 34", 2450 RPM, 11 gph.  

On the need for a good monitor, I would agree that once you know where your engine is running (i.e. how many degrees LOP) at a specific setting, you can just use the setting.  The problem with LOP is that much smaller changes in MP or fuel flow make a bigger change, in percentage terms, in how far LOP you are, than if you are running ROP.  That is because when LOP at, say, 30 degrees, you are much closer to peak than an equivalent ROP setting, which might be 100 degrees.  At 20 degrees LOP it is even tighter.  It does not take much of a change to move the mixture up to peak.  Once you know the correct settings you can just do it, but getting to that point in my view requires a pretty good monitor.  Further, since the differences are small, if your induction system is out of balance which is generally true of the TSIO360LB anyway, you can have a couple of cylinders at peak or even slightly over on the ROP side, with the rest LOP, if you can't see what is going on with some degree of accuracy.

I am at a point where I just put in the magic setting and maybe later I check it, but getting there was more elaborate and I am glad I had the monitor.

Edited December 14, 2016 by jlunseth