Input on this 77 20J - Looking to buy

[Jeev]

Hey all - I am new to this forum as I have just narrowed my preferences down to a 20J   Below are some of my thoughts on this aircraft.  I am looking for some thoughts from some seasoned mooney guys.  Thanks in advance!

Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RL:MOTORS:1123

Positives:

Low Time: TTAF 1589 Engine Since factory new 350 about 8 years ago
Good Avionics: S-Tec 55 coupled to G430
Nice Paint and Interior
Fuel Tanks sealed about 5 years ago
IFR & annual current

Negatives:

Low Time: Only flown about 15hrs in the last year. 350 TSFN in 6+ years.
Was in Europe until 6years ago, same owner since. Owner states all logbooks are accounted for and current.

So those more experienced than me tell me what you think.

Thanks!

[The-sky-captain]

Jeev- The plane you are looking at is very similiar to the plane that I bought in regards to the paint,tanks resealed, new interior and avionics. I have 2600 tt and 680 smoh and was in the same boat with mine only being flown about 20 hours the prior year which did concern me a bit but so far has not been a problem. ( I have put 80 hrs on it since Sept of 08 with no problems.) 

From what I can see on ebay it looks to be a very nice plane. Of course you would want to go over the logbooks with a fine tooth comb and have a good prebuy done on it. Previous threads on this site will show you many other details to look at too. Good luck on the search.

[Cruiser]

I would be more concerned about the time between flights than the hours. Did it sit for long periods of inactivity?

Check with Mac McDowell at Rocky Mountain Mooney. He always has several good planes at very reasonable prices.

 

TomK

[KSMooniac]

It looks pretty nice to me too.  I would never buy a plane as a "normal" ebay transaction...in other words just consider the auction an advertising vehicle and then make sure the due diligence is done in a normal fashion. 

My concern would be with the presumed lack of recent activity and the location.  If it were sitting in the desert, that would be better than some place more humid.  I would ask for current oil analysis results, or get it done during a pre-buy to see if there are any unusual amounts of iron (ie rust) in the oil.  I would also want to check the condition of all the various hoses and tubes firewall-forward.  Hopefully they were changed with the engine.  Any idea who did the fuel tanks?  There are only a couple of shops that specialize in the work, so if a generic A&P just added more sealant on top of the old then it might be a negative instead of a positive.

I'll also point out that is not the original prop for a '77 model.  Originally they used square-tipped McCauley props and switched to the round-tip (like on that plane) in '78.  The round-tips are better performers (I believe) but there must be a reason it was switched since the original could not have had much time on it!  Perhaps a gear-up?

It also looks like they might have painted the corners of the windows to get a little of the later model rounded corner look...I wish I could see some close-ups!  Looks pretty nice from afar.

[Jeev]

Thanks for the great replies and info!  This board is the best!  Any Mooney I decide on will go through at least a prebuy and most likley an annual.  I really like the avionics, paint and interior but some very good points were brought up about the lack of use that are in line with my concerns.  I will go through the logbooks carefully, and have it checked out through the MSC in VA if I move foward.

Thanks again and keep the advice coming; I will have a 20J in 6 or so months even if it is not this one and the info on this board has been great!

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: KSMooniac

  I would never buy a plane as a "normal" ebay transaction...in other words just consider the auction an advertising vehicle and then make sure the due diligence is done in a normal fashion. 

This advice is worth it's weight in diamonds!!  Well put...If the seller really "thinks" someone would buy the airplane in the limited time constraints of an ebay auction, then they are out of touch with reality.  Buying and selling airplanes is more akin to a long courtship than a wham-bam-thankyou-mamm transaction.  As a buyers assistant back in the early 90's I facilitated many airplane deals, Mooney’s being my favorite type of airplane to sell...I never pushed for a sale or put a time limit on the buyer’s decision.  Moving slowly allowed both parties to arrive at a mutually beneficial decision about the transaction; due diligence and patience allows for a deal that both parties are typically please with.  When deals are rushed...usually one or the other has buyers' or sellers remorse. 

[N207LS]

I agree with the posts that say that this looks llike a nice airplane...  A few things that I would want to see...  First the logs.  Take time to go through them from the most recent entry first.  Second, rubber donuts (when were they replaced).  Third, is there a warranty left on the reseal and who did it (see my posts under wetwingologists on the vintage forum).  Fourth, the paint job looks great in the photos, but I would want to see up close.  It does seem like a nice plane though, I would just be careful to really check it out and spend a few extra $$ on the pre-buy to make sure.

Aaron

[eaglebkh]

Definitely a nice 201. I like the rounded window corners, though it is not the original shape. The plane is also nicely equiped avionics-wise (S-tec 55x and GNS 430).

I cannot seem to find in the description anything about a tank reseal. It's probably just me. I am also curious about the prop swap - the listing says No Damage History.

[KSMooniac]

Jim, I thought about that possibility and looked up the serial number...it is 200-something so I'd bet a dollar it was originally equipped with the square-tip prop like mine.  The later prop is an improvement, but I'd like to know why and when it was changed, that is all.

[Jeev]

Quote: eaglebkh

I cannot seem to find in the description anything about a tank reseal.

[MooneyMike]

Do you know and have considered the differences between the first run 201 and later ones?  Starting with the '78 models, the Piper style power quadrant was replaced with the push/pull type knobs.  Not an major change.

Two big changes were to the gear actuators and fuel system.  Early models have a 100 hour inspection gear inspection due to the high speed gear motors versus the later style which is less maintenance (and $$$) intensive.  Next is the placement of the fuel selector switch which is difficult to access while in flight on the '77 model and easily accessabile in the '78 and later. 

Many 201's can be found with an HSI and either a KAP 150 autopilot or KFC200 flight director. 

Right now is a buyers market.  Grab a recent MAPA log, give Jimmy at All American Aircraft, Sherry at LASAR, Tom at Top Gun a call and start asking questions.  There are a number of nice 201's for sale right now and about 40 or so will be in Tahoe in mid-summer at the fly-in.   

350 hours in 8 years is not a great way to maintain a Mooney.  Was it hangared in a dry environment the whole time?  Do the logbooks detail what was done during an annual, or do they state "work performed IAW FAR XXX"? 

A wise mechanic once told me "I get worried when all I see is a stamp and a signature."

[blacknchrome]

So what did you find out about this aircraft?  Did you bring it home or did you find a reason to leave it on the market?

[Jeev]

Quote: blacknchrome

So what did you find out about this aircraft?  Did you bring it home or did you find a reason to leave it on the market?

[KSMooniac]

Good choice.

[blacknchrome]

Ok.  Did you do a prebuy on the other one?  The reason I ask is I am in the same market and am working on lining up a pre-buy for that airplane.  Did you do much research on the other one that you mind sharing with me before I get too much money tied up in it myself? 

Nice looking airplane, by the way.  We were considering that aircraft ourselves.

Quote: Jeev

 I decided not to "risk it" based on the that the lack of recent use / maintence.  I went with this instead: http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view.jsp?aircraft_id=123973

Higher time but good maintence history and it has been flown at least 100hrs per year for the last 4.  Just passed prebuy and I should have it mid next week  

 

[Jeev]

Quote: blacknchrome

 

[Jeev]

Quote: KSMooniac

Good choice.

[Parker_Woodruff]

You made a good choice on this one.  Make sure and make a post once it's yours!!

[KSMooniac]

You're gonna love it, Jeev!  Just don't let Parker slap some ugly BU stickers on it.   

[blacknchrome]

Thanks for the info.  For us, it sure looks like a good all around package.  We were just not excited about the Century IIb's we were finding in 80% of the airplanes.  Hopefully the prebuy discovers any corrosion issues.  

Quote: Jeev

 I did not do a prebuy.  That aircraft looks really nice and the Stec 55 is a huge plus, if I remember correctly the 430 is not WAAS.  To tell you the truth I didn't do to much research on the 77 you are looking at. I did speak with the owner and he seemed like he was on the up and up.  I didn't go forward with it because one: it is geographically far from me and two: it has been "sitting" in a humid climate with not a lot of use.  May turn out to be a non-issue, if it was closer to me I definitely would have gone and taken it for a flight.

When I spoke with him months ago he said he would not take lower than $85k I say if you can get him down to $75k, good prebuy at MSC with owner fixing airworthy squawks, and expect that you may need an OH in the next 5 years its a good buy.

KSMooniac, Parker, and LFOD on this board were and continue to be a HUGE help.  Go look at it in person and fly it before getting a prebuy. I have been looking for about 6months and have seen aircraft that are beautiful in pictures but oxidized, chipped and nasty in person.

Good luck and PM me if you want to talk live.  I do think if you get it for $75k its a good deal.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: KSMooniac

You're gonna love it, Jeev!  Just don't let Parker slap some ugly BU stickers on it.   

[KSMooniac]

Good idea, Parker!

blacknchrome, make sure you take the list of issues/questions that we raised on the first few posts and get them answered during the prebuy.  It could be a very nice deal if all checks out.  I would recommend getting an oil sample (from WARM oil after running/flying) and overnighting it to Blackstone for quick analysis.  You should go to Blackstone's website now and order a sample kit too to be prepared.  Sitting idle is the worst thing for a plane, and especially a Lycoming engine.

[fantom]

You are gonna love that plane. Best of luck with her!

[LFOD]

Outstanding Jeev!!!  Looking forward to seeing it when you fly it up to Portland.  There are some beautiful places on the coast that I can show you. 

[Jeev]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I was just gonna swap planes and see if he was red/green colorblind.