Looking at an M20F

[mooniac15u]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The real weakness in the Mooney gear system occupies the front left seat.

Clarence

Do you ever get a Mooney in for the first time with the gear rigged incorrectly?  Seems like A&Ps can be a weak point too.  Present company excluded.

[Marauder]

Just now, Yetti said: The later model Fs were a test bed for the J.   I don't think the J drivers are going to feel good knowing they have a fragile landing gear system....

Like I said, I'm "Jon Snow" in this endeavor. I may have been given bad info. But a number of folks, even while not saying anything bad about the newer gear systems, have spoken highly of the simplicity and mechanical reliability of the manual landing gear; "there's nothing to go wrong!" says the owner of an M20B (and a fleet of Pipers, including a retractable Apache).

Then I read little asides like this one: “[M]ost Mooney pilots wondered why in the world the company complicated a good thing with an electrically operated landing gear.” http://airfactsjournal.com/2014/03/whats-wrong-mooney-pilots-lot/

And this: “Many Mooney pilots swear by the Johnson bar. Through my research I even read a discussion thread on which a few owners were looking into converting their electric-gear airplanes to the manually actuated system. Their argument for the Johnson bar was that it is less expensive to maintain and less prone to failure.” http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/mooney-makeover-buying-airplane

The simpler operation and lower MX costs are brought up several times in this thread here, as well: 

 

At the end of the day, I like simple. I still drive the '95 Jeep Wrangler I bought new 22 years ago to drive to California. (I also have an E46 BMW that has a little too much in the gizmo department, and I've had some bewildering and expensive situations with that car - like a malfunctioning driver's side door handle that would inexplicably, while the car was parked and untouched, unlock the car, lower the windows part way, and leave the convertible top in some state of partial retraction...)

 

 

 

If your concern is the "complexity" of the electric gear planes, by all means, restrict your search to the J bar planes. I've owned my F with electric gear for 25 years. I did have initial problems with the breaker popping on extension (slipping alternator belt), gear retraction on cold days (installed the override switch to deal with donuts too cold to expand and hit the squat switch) and the broken plastic indicator shown above.

I too drive an older Jeep TJ and love the simplistic systems. But I also love the cooled seats in my F350 Turbocharged Diesel. If you are worried with dealing with too many complex issues in a plane like a Mooney, there are other brands that have even less complicated systems.

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[Bob_Belville]

21 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Do you ever get a Mooney in for the first time with the gear rigged incorrectly?  Seems like A&Ps can be a weak point too.  Present company excluded.

DMax, who sees about as many Mooneys as anyone, says the gear rigging is very unlikely to change year to year unless a mechanic changes it. 

[Yetti]

The problems with the manual gear are worn latching points and improper operation.  There are a many ways to screw up simple systems

In later models the gear extension speed was upped.  Some people use the gear as the bottom speed brakes.  "If you can't slow down on final, your gear are probably not out"

Edited August 16, 2016 by Yetti

[mooniac15u]

1 minute ago, Bob_Belville said:

DMax, who sees about as many Mooneys as anyone, says the gear rigging is very unlikely to change year to year unless a mechanic changes it. 

I suspect there are a fair number of Mooneys out there that haven't had their preload checked for quite some time because the local maintainer doesn't have the required tools. 

[cnoe]

Just now, carusoam said: As for expenses, there are more things in aviation that are more expensive.  Flying slowly in brand C or P, with fixed gear hanging out makes a good example of expensive ways to fly.

 

Heh. Yeah. Most of my time lately (I got my PPL in October, I have ~200 hours total time, 54 of those in the last 90 days) has been in an SR22 G2 or a PA28R-200. The Arrow costs me $20/hr more to rent (+12% more), but cruises about 45kts faster (GPS measured ground speed) (+46% faster) than the Warriors I was renting... The Cirrus is, um, a lot faster, but slurps down fuel at a prodigious rate, and I can buy a Mooney for less than 6 months of rental costs on the Cirrus...

 

 

I missed something. You said the Arrow cruises 45 kts faster than a Warrior? That must be one helluva Arrow! Buy it!

Perhaps tailwinds had a say in your experience.

P.S. Don't fear the electric gear.

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[kpaul]

Just now, M20Doc said:

The real weakness in the Mooney gear system occupies the front left seat.

Clarence

I think in the PC world you have to refer to them as the "yoke-throttle interconnect."

[Brian Scranton]

16 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Thanks! (Though thought a rebuilt IO-360 was about $20K? http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul ) I like the quadrant throttles on the later-model Fs, but I've heard horror stories about the frailty (MX nightmare, is how it was described) of the M20's electric landing gear...?

Definitely want the stretched "F"-style fuselage, though, both for passenger capacity and because I've heard it's a more stable platform in, e.g., IMC.

I'm new to all of this, so forgive me if I have bad info!

I like this one a lot: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2190758&s-type=aircraft

Also, the cost of an overhaul does not include removal, installation, parts that need to be replaced, or any of the hoses, lines etc...that bumps the cost about another $10K or so. There are a lot planes out there. Ones that have been flown and cared for. Check those out too! 

[jetdriven]

That guy has bad luck with airplanes.  A prop strike and a gear up.  But the alternator went out so that gear up wasn't his fault....

[glafaille]

17 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Heh. Yeah. Most of my time lately (I got my PPL in October, I have ~200 hours total time, 54 of those in the last 90 days) has been in an SR22 G2 or a PA28R-200. The Arrow costs me $20/hr more to rent (+12% more), but cruises about 45kts faster (GPS measured ground speed) (+46% faster) than the Warriors I was renting... The Cirrus is, um, a lot faster, but slurps down fuel at a prodigious rate, and I can buy a Mooney for less than 6 months of rental costs on the Cirrus...

 

 

Chrixxer:

The best way to discuss the speed of an aircraft is by using true airspeed.  Indicated airspeed, ground speed and GPS speeds are meaningless.  Most Warriors true out about 115 to 120 knots and most Arrows are 130 to 135 knot airplanes.  If the Warrior and Arrow you are talking about are 45 knots apart, something is very wrong with either or one of both airplanes or your method of measuring speed.

[Jerry 5TJ]

There are three levels of prevarication:

    lies

    damn lies

    Mooneyspace TAS claims

 

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

The real weakness in the Mooney gear system occupies the front left seat.

Clarence

And this is borne out by the number of "gear ups" that have happened with the simple, "idiot proof" manual gear.

[chrixxer]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

If you are worried with dealing with too many complex issues in a plane like a Mooney, there are other brands that have even less complicated systems.

Within reason. I mean, I'm a little worried about maintenance on the TC system, but I've heard it's very useful and not that big a deal all (vis-a-vis MX) all things considered... I'd just heard so many positive things about the J-bar setup, and enough "reports" of complexity / reliability issues with the electrical gear...

 

[chrixxer]

10 hours ago, cnoe said:

I missed something. You said the Arrow cruises 45 kts faster than a Warrior? That must be one helluva Arrow!

Ground speed, across multiple flights, GPS-measured (430s in both panels plus Foreflight / Stratus). The Warrior (a -151) cruises at about 97 kts GS (IAS is about 105 mph). (Winds aloft around here, especially at like 3,500', are generally pretty mild.) The Arrow cruises between 137-143 knots ground speed (IAS is 140-155 mph).

[chrixxer]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

Renting by the hour is expensive. Doesn't usually go far during the weekend either.

That's why we are Mooney owners.  Fast and efficient, safe and looks cool to.

 

I've been lucky on weekends, I can usually negotiate a waived daily minimum since the plane I like to fly is complex and not used for primary training. That's assuming no one else has spoken for it, though, the uncertainty I'm trying to eliminate. I can rent a Mooney (an M20B) without daily minimums, but it's a drive to get out there (I live ~10 minutes from SMO, the Mooney is out at CNO).

I like what I know about the Mooney - fast, efficient, safe, and looks cool.

[carusoam]

And makes for a great IFR platform.  The B makes an excellent gateway to the Mooney family.  

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

12 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

Do you ever get a Mooney in for the first time with the gear rigged incorrectly?  Seems like A&Ps can be a weak point too.  Present company excluded.

I was referring to the comment somewhere about Mooney gear being fragile.  Most Mooney gear trouble seem to be a result of pilot error, not saying maintainers get a free pass.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

There are three levels of prevarication:

    lies

    damn lies

    Mooneyspace TAS claims

 

A 3 track NTPS spreadsheet won't lie.  In my case full power sea level is 172 knots.  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, kpaul said:

I think in the PC world you have to refer to them as the "yoke-throttle interconnect."

Or "Driver"

Clarence