IMC Mooney Flying - what's safe?

[3914N]

This is a writeup of my own experiences, hopefully to spur discussion.

I've been flying IFR since I got my rating back in 2010.  I've flown in the soup in 172's, cherokees, and a friend's M20F before purchasing my G.  Equipment ranging from dual VORs to WAAS GPS to 1-axis autopilots and everything in between.

After all this, I've found that I really just don't feel comfortable flying IFR at night or in anything other than a nice coastal marine layer.  I don't have an autopilot nor working PC, so I find myself busy enough hand flying while programming the GPS and talking on the radio.  Throw in some turbulence from cumulus clouds and I get pretty uncomfortable.  I don't necessarily feel unsafe, but I just don't have fun with it.  I also can't help but think that an engine failure in night IMC is essentially certain death.

So, where do you all draw the line?  I'm sure it's equipment-dependent... I felt a lot more adventurous when I had a roll autopilot to help me out...

[slowflyin]

I don't do much night IFR as my typical mission doesn't require it.   As far as day, I'm comfortable with an "out".   I need better weather within fuel reserves +.   I haven't cancelled more than a handful of flights over the past 15 years but It happens.  This year I was coming home from FL to VA after two weeks on the road.  Really, really ready to be in my own bed.  The whole East coast was forecast 400 and overcast and my hour reserve wasn't enough to get me far enough West to find better weather.   400 isn't particularly low for me but I was concerned if the forecast was a bust it would be for the entire area so I cancelled.   I don't ever want to be in a situation where I have to get into an airport.    As a side note, I made the trip the next day with my destination on the trailing edge of the weather and broke out at minimums (315) even though the forecast was 800 OVC.  The difference, my alternate was 30 minutes west with 4500 and broken.   It was a relaxing approach knowing better weather was so close.    

I fly the Brittain wing leveler paired with an Stec 30 Alt hold.

 

[Zwaustin]

I enjoy flying in the soup when in the absence of icing and thunderstorms but without my fully coupled autopilot I would have second thoughts about longer trips as I don't like hand flying in the soup for extended hours. Great to stay proficient by hand but I keep that to the shorter local flights. As for night IMC, don't do much of that either unless I have a specific mission which is rare. 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

In 31 years of flying, I find it ironic that as I get older and am able to afford more capable airplanes, I'm less inclined to use their capabilities because my personal minimums keep going up as well.

I'm with the OP: I'll fly IMC in coastal or Midwestern stratus all day, but IMC over the Rockies in bumpy, icy clouds is not at all my cup of tea and I avoid it if at all possible.

I stopped flying at night when I moved to CO from CA 10 years ago.

[Bravoman]

 Although it is a bit off topic, I also  gave up night flying some years back. From a risk management perspective I don't like my chances in a single engine airplane if the engine quits and I cannot make it to an airport.

[Cruiser]

1 hour ago, 3914N said:

This is a writeup of my own experiences, hopefully to spur discussion.

I've been flying IFR since I got my rating back in 2010.  I've flown in the soup in 172's, cherokees, and a friend's M20F before purchasing my G.  Equipment ranging from dual VORs to WAAS GPS to 1-axis autopilots and everything in between.

After all this, I've found that I really just don't feel comfortable flying IFR at night or in anything other than a nice coastal marine layer.  I don't have an autopilot nor working PC, so I find myself busy enough hand flying while programming the GPS and talking on the radio.  Throw in some turbulence from cumulus clouds and I get pretty uncomfortable.  I don't necessarily feel unsafe, but I just don't have fun with it.  I also can't help but think that an engine failure in night IMC is essentially certain death.

So, where do you all draw the line?  I'm sure it's equipment-dependent... I felt a lot more adventurous when I had a roll autopilot to help me out...

I can help you out with this....... I have a S-tec System 30 autopilot computer and Alt Hold module for sale. Removed from my Mooney 20R/S

[Marauder]

Like a few others, as I have gotten older I have also gotten more conservative. I believe having the right equipment on board helps tremendously with the workload and decision making. In 2012, after flying 20 years with just VORs,  I finally installed a WAAS GPS. I found it created more workload because of the off airway routing I would get -- especially the re-routes here in the northeast. If it wasn't for the fully capable autopilot, I would enjoy flying even less. I don't subscribe to the "real pilots don't need autopilots". For us amateurs flying single engine, single pilot IFR, it is best to stack the odds in your favor.

Having weather capability onboard in the form of ADS-B and a WX-500 also makes the inflight decision making a lot easier. Another thing that helps me is I do a 6 month IPCs regardless of how much flying I am doing. Having another set of experienced eyes on my capabilities helps alleviate concerns that I am getting rusty.

As for the bumps... I hate them too.

[Brian Scranton]

As a new IFR pilot, I am asking myself this everyday! I am really excited to fly in the clouds--but of course, no icing, thunderstorms, etc...I love the idea of poking through a marine layer or some stratus or light, fluffy cumulus in non convective conditions. For example, today I wanted to fly to work from Ocean County, NJ to Morristown, NJ, but my departure airport had fog (200' OVC, 1.5 mile vis) and I decided not to go, even though my destination was nice and sunny as was 80% of my enroute segment. And while I think I would have no problem climbing through the fog to the 1000 AGL level needed to get VMC, a wise man once told me, "I'd never depart from an airport that I couldn't immediately turn around and land at if I had a problem." So, my question is--what ceiling level would I comfortable depart at? I'm thinking 1000ft...or maybe circling mins, but would love to hear what you guys have to say. 

[3914N]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

I can help you out with this....... I have a S-tec System 30 autopilot computer and Alt Hold module for sale. Removed from my Mooney 20R/S

Is this compatible with the original brittan boots?  I just spent $15k installing a GNS-430W and GMA-340, so I'm really not able to commit serious funds to anything else at this point.  But if there were a plug-and-play solution that I could install with the help of an A&P without taking out a second mortgage...

[Ftlausa]

Great question.  I am a year into my IR rating, and because I use my Mooney for work fairly often, I have flown hard IFR on multiple occasions.  For me, hard IFR is cumulus and cumulonimbus -- which is pretty standard fare in south Florida.  I do try to avoid nighttime hard IFR as I don't enjoy it and I think its easier to get spatial distortion under those conditions.  

I have a KAP150 A/P which I use in the soup to avoid fatigue, but I have found that in rough turbulence the A/P can have a hard time keeping up and I switch to hand flying the airplane.  I have had the unfortunate experience of multiple encounters with thunderstorms thanks to ATC routing, and have hand flown those.  The good news is that the Mooney airframe is very tough and I was not worried about an airframe failure.  I would not have wanted to be in the last one in a Cessna as I would probably not be here to tell about it.        

[Bob_Belville]

I'm a good bit older than either Joe or Chris so I identify with their attitude toward being more conservative even as we get more capable airplanes and panels. Forty plus years ago I went anywhere in just about any weather except ice and often over mountains at night, IMC in my M20E that initially had only VLOC, ADF, and a wing leveler. 

At 73 and long retired I do not have to operate that way. But these are personal choices. Flying 20-30 hours per month should mean that hand flying a Mooney in IMC via airways is perfectly safe if the pilot adheres to the rules for IFR flight and aircraft maintenance. 

Just as our first instructor probably hammered into our head that our fresh PPL was a licience to learn, so your fresh instrument ticket should be exercised with care. Being able to climb through a 1000' ceiling to fly in the clear until time to descend through another deck to a visual approach is liberating after years of avoiding every cloud. Taking off in zero/zero and landing in a heavy rain at night @ 200 and 1/2 is perfectly legal when you've built the experience and skills.

It seems to me there are few accidents that involve a qualified instrument pilot in a well maintained plane crashing because of IMC. 

   

[rbridges]

42 minutes ago, 3914N said:

Is this compatible with the original brittan boots?  I just spent $15k installing a GNS-430W and GMA-340, so I'm really not able to commit serious funds to anything else at this point.  But if there were a plug-and-play solution that I could install with the help of an A&P without taking out a second mortgage...

I think STEC charges a pretty penny to transfer the STC from one certified plane to the next.  Double check, but I think that's what I've heard.

[Cruiser]

2 hours ago, 3914N said:

Is this compatible with the original brittan boots?  I just spent $15k installing a GNS-430W and GMA-340, so I'm really not able to commit serious funds to anything else at this point.  But if there were a plug-and-play solution that I could install with the help of an A&P without taking out a second mortgage...

Not compatible that I am aware. You would need the servos and a wiring harness. A very popular and capable unit in Mooney's 

[laytonl]

I find it ironic that I'm comfortable flying over a couple of hundred mile area of 100 foot ceilings but I'm not comfortable flying at night.  Go figure. Lee

[Bob_Belville]

40 minutes ago, laytonl said:

I find it ironic that I'm comfortable flying over a couple of hundred mile area of 100 foot ceilings but I'm not comfortable flying at night.  Go figure. Lee

Agree. And we fly west of KMRN over 50 miles of very inhospitable terrain which is no doubt riskier than night flight going north, east or south.

[JohnB]

Interesting question! I am quite comfortable flying at night and have been for a while. The only challenges I see at night is taxiing once landed on an unfamiliar airport.This has been made MUCH easier with the now moving taxi maps on foreflight and other systems so now its no problem. I try not to fly over long areas mountainous terrain at night, but if I can be ridiculously high over a relatively short area of mountains, ill do it no problems. 

When I got my IFR many moons ago (we wont say how many exactly heh heh) my instructor told me now that you have your IFR, go fly in marine layers, easy overcast intentionally to keep your skill set up which I have been doing. When I practice in VFR conditions with a safety pilot I always take it all the way down to the minimums and only then look up, so i feel proficient at doing that, as well as intentional go arounds which i also do in VFR.

In IFR conditions i have done the same thing, day or night, and I think the best way to stay safe is to always have a plan B and be ready to go to another airport without any hesitation whatsoever.  Just had the great opportunity to do an approach just like that, a LIFR approach at night into my home airport, when the airport I was taking off from was VFR. I knew it could just simply be an exercise at practicing a missed approach, as I would have been fine landing at either airport, but when I broke out at 300 agl, from all white to the runway approach lights right in the center, that was a very satisfying landing to do. So yes i would feel fine in doing night IMC approaches, as long as I didn't commit myself to absolutely having to positively be there, as going around practice is fine to do too!

 

John

[Jeff_S]

Martha Lunken wrote a piece recently where she talked about the creep of personal minimums and how they can be insidious, causing pilots to get less and less value out of their planes. It struck a chord with me because I've had that same feeling myself. And yet, I too find myself modifying flying behavior over time. I'm with the OP, that while I am not particularly nervous or scared in reasonable IMC, I also find I just don't enjoy it that much.  So while I will tackle the conditions if I need to get somewhere and can manage the risk factors appropriately, I don't seek them out much anymore.

Part of the reason we fly is to get that beautiful view from our perch on high. Saw a t-shirt at SnF this year that said it best: Pilots, looking down on people since 1903. Ain't that the truth?! 

[201er]

85%+ of GA accidents are in day VMC.

[N201MKTurbo]

After being inside of a level 5 cell and in severe mountain wave turbelance, I'm much more afraid of turbelance then the dark of night. 

There are places here in Arizona where an off airport landing, even in the best weather during he day would be hard to survive. Yet, people fly over them every day without worry. 

Flying in the soup doesn't scare me, but some of the things that you find in the soup do. When I first started flying, you could fly in any conditions until somebody reported icing at your exact location. I got ice on the plane plenty of times. I was the guy who made it known icing. Since they changed the rule to forecast icing, I fear the FAA more then the ice. 

If you fear an engine failure at night or ot in the clouds, keep ForeFlight on the sectional view and continuously look for landing sites in gliding distance. 

[3914N]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

85%+ of GA accidents are in day VMC.

I wonder if that percentage would change much if you weighted IFR and VFR GA flights equally.  Surely most GA flights are VFR.  One would imagine that IFR flying is inherently more risky?

Edited June 23, 2016 by 3914N

[Hank]

I avoid IMC around embedded thunderstorms, but can't avoid all cumulus clouds. I went from WV to Nashville and back, never saw the ground more than 3-4 nm from BNA / HTS on the ILS. but it was smooth . . . I've also had unsmooth flights in the soup, smooth is nicer. Flying back from FXE, I climbed from the gloom into bright sunshine, and coming north on V3 at 9000 msl, the clouds rose up around me until I eventually I popped out the bottom around Orlando.

Clouds happen, you just need to know what's in them (thank you, StormScope!) and what's around them. I do try not to fly over extended areas of low IMC, and I am religious about avoiding icing conditions, either stay or reroute (yes, I've done both on one flight).

the key is to stay safe. "Hope" has no part in your flight plan!

[201er]

4 hours ago, 3914N said:

I wonder if that percentage would change much if you weighted IFR and VFR GA flights equally.  Surely most GA flights are VFR.  One would imagine that IFR flying is inherently more risky?

IFR may be less frequent but it's safer. Why do you think you get an insurance discount? Involves more planning, experience, and thought. Less steep turns, higher speeds, more straight in approaches, controller oversight. Less likely to stall which accounts for 3x more accidents than loss of power and 30x the fatalities. The pilot is the plane's weakest link.

[M016576]

32 minutes ago, 201er said:

IFR may be less frequent but it's safer. Why do you think you get an insurance discount? Involves more planning, experience, and thought. Less steep turns, higher speeds, more straight in approaches, controller oversight. Less likely to stall which accounts for 3x more accidents than loss of power and 30x the fatalities. The pilot is the plane's weakest link.

It's all in the Nall report... The NTSB statistics anyway.  the report is a great read if you have a few moments- and could help us all identify our potential risk spots.  The overall statistics are interesting, but they are not a tailored matrix to your personal flying profile.

it's just like Dirty Harry said: "a mans gotta know his limits."

If you're a fully qualified and current pilot (so... taking pilot error out of the mix), the limits are a light GA plane with only one engine.  we can build our risk tolerance off of that- a Mooney is not a 9g fighter with a couple after burning turbofans, and an IFR rated HUD, or a twin turboprop with boots.  A mooney is still a very capable IFR platform, though, within its limits.  Night makes assessing those limits a little more difficult though, and night IMC adds more risk in the event of systems failure (although flying over low IMC adds many of the same complications if the engine stops turning or an immediate descent is required).

flying IFR is all about constantly planning for, and expecting the worst... While trying not to allow our hope for the best to bias the big decisions.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by M016576

[1964-M20E]

I to have canceled flights if I didn't like the WX.  IFR has made life easier and more flights possible.  I will terminate a flight at night but rarely will I start a flight at night.  Just reading the charts and plates is more difficult at night.  As for IMC at night I prefer not to I like to see what I can't see.

 

 

[Chris from PA]

Each pilot needs to establish his/her level of risk acceptance and adhere to it. I've determined that to fly in IMC I want a functional autopilot (in my case it's my PC) and a plan B to get out of the soup if I experience an equipment failure. Currently both my PC and attitude indicator are vacuum powered. That's a single point of failure I'm not willing to accept which is why I'm replacing the ADI with Sandia 340 Quattro. On a good day I'll have the Quattro, a 530W and the PC. On a bad day (loss of electrics and vacuum) I'll have the Quattro and a yoke mounted Aera 510 (both on internal battery). That's my solution, you need to determine yours. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Chris from PA