IMC Mooney Flying - what's safe?

[Brian Scranton]

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

I have departed in literally zero/zero, could not see the sides of the 150' runway, flew the DG way before GPS and SV.

More recently going to TX last month we departed a couple of times into morning 300' ceilings. I do not have a hard limit, not all ceilings are the same. And it depends somewhat upon how comfortable you are multi tasking, cleaning up the plane in IMC. 

[cnoe]

At my home field with no complications I'll launch into a 300' ceiling. That's higher than minimums on our ILS or LPV approaches, plus we have approach lighting. If it was widespread 300' with fewer options for returning, or I was unfamiliar with the area I'd raise that.

Also, this doesn't mean launching into 300' convective clouds. And I want to be on my A-game and focused for the launch.

Essentially, "it depends", but 300' is doable for me if conditions are otherwise good. FYI, I'm a fairly new IR pilot (<2 years) but I fly 150-180 hours a year.

[PMcClure]

7 minutes ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

I say it depends. I have taken off in 0/0 before, but that was just local fog. I have a neat picture somewhere of that after breaking out. The field was have IFR 0/0 and half VFR clear.

[Ned Gravel]

I have taken off in 200' ceilings over an untowered airport without any navaids on the field but only because five miles to the west was a 10,000' runway with an ILS and had 700' ceilings that day.  Otherwise, my own personal minima for an ILS is 400 and 1/2.  My own personal mimina for a non-precision approach is 1000 and 1.  

 

[201er]

2 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

It depends.

[midlifeflyer]

Like a whole bunch of others, as I have gotten more experienced I have gotten more conservative. My first IFR so flight was a week after I got my ticket, with almost the entire flight in the clouds, half of it at night, and an approach to about 300' above minimums.

Now, my personal minimums for planning purposes are pretty much what standard alternate minimums look like. Flying in Colorado gave me enormous respect for mountains and, while the mountains here are a wee bit lower, mountain weather is mountain weather and nothing to fool with. I would fly IFR in the mountains but the conditions would have to be pretty benign. Night alone, still doesn't worry me that  much, although that's easy to say since I haven't faced that question - I am, though, flying anything at night far, far less than I used to.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

Same as my personal minimums for my destination. I want to know I can easily get back into my departure airport or a nearby departure alternate in case of a problem.

[chrisk]

I enjoy flying in IMC, provided it is smooth and above 10c.  I don't particularly care for flying IMC when it is super bumpy or I am concerned about icing up the plane.   Ceilings and night time flight are limited by terrain and the DP available. I don't fly night VFR in the mountains.  I avoid night IFR in the mountains.  I avoid mountain IMC departures where an easy screw up puts me into a mountain.    I avoid thunder storms.  And I make sure I have enough fuel to get to an airport with reasonable ceilings.   

 

[M016576]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

I enjoy flying in IMC, provided it is smooth and above 10c.  I don't particularly care for flying IMC when it is super bumpy or I am concerned about icing up the plane.   Ceilings and night time flight are limited by terrain and the DP available. I don't fly night VFR in the mountains.  I avoid night IFR in the mountains.  I avoid mountain IMC departures where an easy screw up puts me into a mountain.    I avoid thunder storms.  And I make sure I have enough fuel to get to an airport with reasonable ceilings.   

 

you said it, man- I follow the same strategy.

 Except...  I don't enjoy flying in IMC.  I'm indifferent to IMC. I enjoy flying VMC... Where I can see what I'm flying over, as opposed to watching needles (my day job airplane) or the magenta line (the mooney), and counting down the NM's to the approach.  It's probably because I literally HAVE to fly IFR/IMC at times where I'd rather not (but I guess that's why I get paid the "big bucks"..., yeah right!).

hard to complain about getting paid to fly... But, I'm a pilot, complaining is what I do best!

in the mooney, I don't take off unless I have an option to immediately land.  There's just no real good reason IMO to depart 0-0 in a light single engine GA aircraft- too much risk (again, that's just me).

[Jeff_S]

5 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

I generally use circling minimums at the departure field as my starting point. If the ceiling is at least to that level, then I don't think too much about it (assuming no other icing or convective issues of course). Below circling minimums, then I have to think about other factors, all of which have been described already. It's about determining the overall risk factor of the flight rather than any one element of it.

[Danb]

I actually evaluate myself , my plane and the conditions. If I'm not feeling up to myself my min. may change up to 1000 ft., this seems like a cop out not providing a hard number. If all is well including the pilot and how sharp I feel I usually like 500 ft.,when young and not very smart  I also departed 0/0 like others, those days are gone. I've scrapped quite a few flights in the last few years evaluating myself on the morning of the flight.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

I actually evaluate myself , my plane and the conditions. If I'm not feeling up to myself my min. may change up to 1000 ft., this seems like a cop out not providing a hard number. If all is well including the pilot and how sharp I feel I usually like 500 ft.,when young and not very smart  I also departed 0/0 like others, those days are gone. I've scrapped quite a few flights in the last few years evaluating myself on the morning of the flight.

Absolutely. Personal minimums are a baseline, subject to increase based on other risk factors.

[chrisk]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

you said it, man- I follow the same strategy.

 Except...  I don't enjoy flying in IMC.  I'm indifferent to IMC. I enjoy flying VMC... Where I can see what I'm flying over, as opposed to watching needles (my day job airplane) or the magenta line (the mooney), and counting down the NM's to the approach.  It's probably because I literally HAVE to fly IFR/IMC at times where I'd rather not (but I guess that's why I get paid the "big bucks"..., yeah right!).

hard to complain about getting paid to fly... But, I'm a pilot, complaining is what I do best!

in the mooney, I don't take off unless I have an option to immediately land.  There's just no real good reason IMO to depart 0-0 in a light single engine GA aircraft- too much risk (again, that's just me).

Ok, its not the actual flight in IMC that I enjoy.    I like that there is a lot less traffic.  The controllers seem more relaxed.  And for the airports I typically go to, I get cleared to land when I reach the final approach fix, instead of being the 3rd in the traffic pattern. 

[laytonl]

My number is variable too.  My absolute minimum is three stripes and 100'.  But that is only for the persistence early morning ground fog we have in the mountains.  I'm usually on top at 300 feet or so with VFR nearby.  Lee

[bradp]

I'm like Dan, variable minimums.  I will often seek out an airport at mins for a training approach so long as there are adequate outs.   My mantra is that I should be capable of any approach to minimums at any airport along my route, otherwise I have no business filing.   My personal minimums will be above that, however.  Training is there to take us to mins or below.  I've flown approaches to mins at night but have never been in a position where I needed to make the approach "or else".  There are way too many pilot disaster stories on AOPA about a pilot who got in over their heads because they were unable to physically maintain directional control and aircraft performance in conditions where an instrument rated pilot should have been capable of an approach to land.  I find that incredibly concerning.   

[M016576]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

I'm like Dan, variable minimums.  I will often seek out an airport at mins for a training approach so long as there are adequate outs.   My mantra is that I should be capable of any approach to minimums at any airport along my route, otherwise I have no business filing.   My personal minimums will be above that, however.  Training is there to take us to mins or below.  I've flown approaches to mins at night but have never been in a position where I needed to make the approach "or else".  There are way too many pilot disaster stories on AOPA about a pilot who got in over their heads because they were unable to physically maintain directional control and aircraft performance in conditions where an instrument rated pilot should have been capable of an approach to land.  I find that incredibly concerning.   

And I think your philosophy just highlights a prudent IFR pilot.  It's like the saying says (or something like this)-

an expert pilot dedicates themselves to superior preflight planning, so they never have to rely on their above average stick and rudder skills.

[Hank]

"Superior pilots use their superior judgement so that they do not have to use their superior skills."

I also like, "fly as if your life depended on it. Because it does." Nothing is more true in aviation.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Hank

[M016576]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

"Superior pilots use their superior judgement so that they do not have to use their superior skills."

I also like, "fly as if your life depended on it. Because it does." Nothing is more true in aviation.

Yep- that's the one!  I was way off!

[Jim F]

15 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Guys, I am interested to know what your own take off minimums are. Personally, what kind of ceiling do YOU need to depart? 

My personal takeoff minimum is a ceiling to be able to make the approach back to landing. So if my only engine was running rough I would declare and set up for the approach. The rub is if I the engine is running rough going out to do the full approach sounds problematic. Sounds better then 200 ft to maneuver for a clear spot. That's the deal

[bradp]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

get home itis does not affect me anymore while as a young man it did as I was worried about my boss etc.  Now I just say "hmm they want me alive" so I cancel if needs be. 

Right on.  For those who don't know I fly, or for my wife's work it's "our flight home was delayed / canceled, we'll be there in the morning". 

[flyboy0681]

I've never liked night flying due to safety concerns and looking at my logbook I see the last night flight I logged was in 1985.

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

I've never liked night flying due to safety concerns and looking at my logbook I see the last night flight I logged was in 1985.

 

 

Wow, here in Florida where clouds start building by 9am predawn flights are smooth, cool, and little traffic, not to mention beautiful along the coast. My last night flight was 7 hrs ago.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, teejayevans said:

Wow, here in Florida where clouds start building by 9am predawn flights are smooth, cool, and little traffic, not to mention beautiful along the coast. My last night flight was 7 hrs ago.

My policy has its roots in a night flight I took in 1985 from Robbinsville, New Jersey to my base at Caldwell. I was on the McGuire AFB frequency when a Cessna issued a distress call. Listening to it in real-time was a real eye opener as the controller was trying to steer the Cessna towards an airport. I read about the aftermath in the paper a day or so later. I still remember the details over 30 years later.

[M20F]

I look at it as what is s safe and what is fun.  I won't do anything that isn't safe but  I will depending upon need do something that isn't fun.  I flew an extra 2hrs on Friday night around CB, did a missed, went further to do an ILS.  Wasn't fun but I needed to be someplace and wanted to be safe.