CaptRJM Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 I was recently at my avionics shop talking to them about upgrading the stack in my 231 and getting ADS-B compliant at the same time. Currently I have a 530W that I was thinking of changing out to a GTN-750. What shocked me when I received the quote is they are adding in a remote annunciator because they claim that the 530W is not close enough to the HSI to satisfy the STC so that needs to be addressed if I install a 750. Now, I'm not an avionics guy but, I have looked at a bunch of GA aircraft over the years and I can count on 1 hand how many had the remote annunciator. It is usually because the 430/530 is not mounted in the typical positions in a center stack. What are your experiences? I really would value input from those that have installed a GTN 650 or 750. THANKS! Quote
Marauder Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 Just now, CaptRJM said: I was recently at my avionics shop talking to them about upgrading the stack in my 231 and getting ADS-B compliant at the same time. Currently I have a 530W that I was thinking of changing out to a GTN-750. What shocked me when I received the quote is they are adding in a remote annunciator because they claim that the 530W is not close enough to the HSI to satisfy the STC so that needs to be addressed if I install a 750. Now, I'm not an avionics guy but, I have looked at a bunch of GA aircraft over the years and I can count on 1 hand how many had the remote annunciator. It is usually because the 430/530 is not mounted in the typical positions in a center stack. What are your experiences? I really would value input from those that have installed a GTN 650 or 750. THANKS! They are feeding you a line. The requirement is called out in the installation documentation and I think it is 16" or less from the pilot line of sight. Will see if I can find the document. I have never seen a Mooney needing this requirement. My 650 didn't have the restriction. Quote
carusoam Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 I thought the requirement for the GPS annunciators was based on the distance the GPS was from line of sight... The annunciators are about $10 worth of electronic devices and another $10 of standard installation procedure. Value, not actual price... For the most part the annunciators don't catch your attention unless you are actively scanning them. Coming up on a waypoint in your IFR plan is a challenge to get right while looking out the window for traffic. flying hard IFR, it makes sense to have them. Flying IFR in VMC you will wonder why anyone would pay extra for them... The JPI also has a nice remote anunciator to put key data, right in front of the pilot. Why they don't get a matching tone with their blinking...? Or 'Coming up on your waypoint, turn in 4, 3, 2,' would be nice... Of course a simple GPSS box would really make these things a bit less useful, if that is possible... 90s technology combined with human interaction. Quirky stuff. Best regards, -a- Quote
Marauder Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 1 hour ago, carusoam said: I thought the requirement for the GPS annunciators was based on the distance the GPS was from line of sight... The annunciators are about $10 worth of electronic devices and another $10 of standard installation procedure. Value, not actual price... For the most part the annunciators don't catch your attention unless you are actively scanning them. Coming up on a waypoint in your IFR plan is a challenge to get right while looking out the window for traffic. flying hard IFR, it makes sense to have them. Flying IFR in VMC you will wonder why anyone would pay extra for them... The JPI also has a nice remote anunciator to put key data, right in front of the pilot. Why they don't get a matching tone with their blinking...? Or 'Coming up on your waypoint, turn in 4, 3, 2,' would be nice... Of course a simple GPSS box would really make these things a bit less useful, if that is possible... 90s technology combined with human interaction. Quirky stuff. Best regards, -a- I think that is what I said. 16" from where the pilot's eyeballs should be and the display on the GPS. Just not sure of the distance but I know it did not require an annunciator for any GPS units I have seen installed in Mooneys. Quote
carusoam Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 I should have just gone with +1... But, I keep over thinking these things.... like this... If your GPS is mounted directly below your ship's anunciator panel in the center stack, that should be close enough to not need a separate annunciator. The pilot is already going that far in his scan. But it's the FAA guidance. They want you to have separate annunciators applied shot gun style in front of the pilot. Where is the OP's GPS going to be installed, in front of the copilot? That would rule out the logic applied in my post. Just PP ideas using logic, not an instrument installer. Best regards, -a- Quote
cnoe Posted May 11, 2016 Report Posted May 11, 2016 ... not an instrument installer. I haven't heard that one. 2 Quote
capthaak Posted May 12, 2016 Report Posted May 12, 2016 I was recently at my avionics shop talking to them about upgrading the stack in my 231 and getting ADS-B compliant at the same time. Currently I have a 530W that I was thinking of changing out to a GTN-750. What shocked me when I received the quote is they are adding in a remote annunciator because they claim that the 530W is not close enough to the HSI to satisfy the STC so that needs to be addressed if I install a 750. Now, I'm not an avionics guy but, I have looked at a bunch of GA aircraft over the years and I can count on 1 hand how many had the remote annunciator. It is usually because the 430/530 is not mounted in the typical positions in a center stack. What are your experiences? I really would value input from those that have installed a GTN 650 or 750. THANKS! Not used in our installation. Quote
Bob - S50 Posted May 12, 2016 Report Posted May 12, 2016 We have one installed in our plane for our GTN650. I assume you meant the requirement was for the new GTN750 not the currently installed GNS530. Keep in mind, this is only for an IFR installation. Not required for a VFR installation. However, not sure if the shop would be willing to install the GTN and put a placard stating it is for VFR use only. Here are a few paraphrased references from the installation manual: Section 2.4.1.2: If not in the field of view as defined in section 2.10.1.1 then you need an annunciator. Section 2.10.1.1: There are two annunciation requirements and there are horizontal and vertical limits. Vertical is not usually the problem. The horizontal measurement is taken from either the center of the ADI or the yoke. The source annunciation, that is, GPS vs VLOC has to be within 13.9". The navigation indication, that is, ENRT/TERM/LNAV/LPV etc must be within 16.8". Section 2.10.1.2: Used to determine whether you meet the requirements for source annunciation (the only one we needed in our '78 J). Paragraph 3 says if the left edge of the GTN is within 10.6" +/- .25" (maximum then becomes 10.85"), then you are OK. If not you need the source annunciator for IFR. We were off by less than an inch, but to be legal we installed one. Section 2.10.1.3: Similar to above, but for the navigation data display, the left edge only needs to be within 14.4" of the primary field of view. Section C.12 lists acceptable annunciators. We only needed a source indication. We picked the least expensive one we could find which turned out to be a Vivisun which only shows the source. About 1" square. Cost about $500 or so if I remember. Do I ever look at it? No. I just look at the GTN as part of my approach habit, but it's there so we can be legal. Quote
LANCECASPER Posted May 12, 2016 Report Posted May 12, 2016 19 hours ago, CaptRJM said: What shocked me when I received the quote is they are adding in a remote annunciator because they claim that the 530W is not close enough to the HSI to satisfy the STC so that needs to be addressed if I install a 750. Sounds like you are at the wrong shop. I would move on and not look back. Quote
jclemens Posted May 13, 2016 Report Posted May 13, 2016 Sounds like he is at a shop that is willing to be held responsible for their actions. There are indeed circumstances where a remote annunciator would be required by regulation. I am not going to comment on whether or not this particular instance requires one or not unless you want to bring the plane to my shop and let me make that determination. But, condemning the installer for following the installation instructions is not the right thing to do. 3 Quote
Marauder Posted May 13, 2016 Report Posted May 13, 2016 2 hours ago, jclemens said: Sounds like he is at a shop that is willing to be held responsible for their actions. There are indeed circumstances where a remote annunciator would be required by regulation. I am not going to comment on whether or not this particular instance requires one or not unless you want to bring the plane to my shop and let me make that determination. But, condemning the installer for following the installation instructions is not the right thing to do. I have never seen a Mooney with a center stacked GPS require a remote annunciator. Have you? Quote
jclemens Posted May 13, 2016 Report Posted May 13, 2016 In more cases than not, an IFR GPS installation require remote annunciation. There are a lot of installations that don't have them that should. I don't agree that they are needed from a functional standpoint, usually. Generally, all Beech products need it. Sometimes it's needed in others as well. It really depends on what is in the plane and whether or not the installer is comfortable explaining his reasoning for not having it if asked by the Feds. Some feds are great, some are not. Some may measure from the yoke, while the next may use the center of the ADI. The bottom line is when installing a $17,000.00 GTN750, if there is any question about whether a $500 remote unit is needed, why not take the cautious approach. Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted May 14, 2016 Report Posted May 14, 2016 No way I'd pay extra to get an annunciator for my GTX750. I got a G500 so I saved that $500. Quote
jclemens Posted May 14, 2016 Report Posted May 14, 2016 19 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said: No way I'd pay extra to get an annunciator for my GTX750. I got a G500 so I saved that $500. That's the spirit! An Aspen would have provided the needed lights too, but it's kinda hard on the eyes to read Quote
Marauder Posted May 14, 2016 Report Posted May 14, 2016 19 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said: No way I'd pay extra to get an annunciator for my GTX750. I got a G500 so I saved that $500. That's the spirit! An Aspen would have provided the needed lights too, but it's kinda hard on the eyes to read Judging by your avatar, you're a lot younger than me. Might be time for glasses young gun. This is the annunciator he is talking about: Quote
jclemens Posted May 14, 2016 Report Posted May 14, 2016 I put an Aspen in our 231, I like it. But, when a customer is on the fence about a G600 vs. an Aspen...The Aspen is kinda hard to read....The Garmin also kinda costs a little more....kinda. Quote
Bob - S50 Posted May 14, 2016 Report Posted May 14, 2016 14 hours ago, Marauder said: I have never seen a Mooney with a center stacked GPS require a remote annunciator. Have you? Yes. Ours. The ADI and HSI are not aligned over the yoke. They are offset to the left. That means we used the center of the yoke as our reference point. When we took the measurement, if I remember correctly, the center stack mounted GTN650 was about 0.25" too far to the right. We installed the annunciator. Quote
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