Let's play the IFR GPS game

[Becca]

So our plane has got a new factory reman engine in Year 2; Shiny new paint in Year 6... finally time to bring the panel up to 2016.

The minimum requirements are "must have IFR GPS approach capability" and panel is so old, assume nothing would be compatible with whatever we install (e.g. we'd need accompanying indicators, etc.).  2020 compliant with upgrade would be nice, but not necessary.

Assume some DIY for panel prep, but professional install required.

How would you meet this requirement for:
10 AMU's
20 AMU's
30 AMU's
40 AMU's

Edited May 10, 2016 by Becca

[ArtVandelay]

20 gives you ADSB WX and traffic LPV approaches and basic VOR GS indicator I would think. If you don't need new and WAAS, a used 430 and indicator can be installed for 10.

[gsxrpilot]

Not a direct answer to you... but we were out shooting approaches around Austin over the weekend. It was a perfect time for it with OVC 1000, rain, and some isolated convective to stay clear of.  I brought along a safety pilot so I could log the approaches under the hood even if we broke out early.

We were discussing how three specific items make the Mooney a very comfortable IFR machine. For me that's an WAAS GPS (530W), an HSI, and a good AP (Stec-30/alt.) There are other things that help such as an electric secondary AI, but the GPS, HSI and AP make it comfortable to fly IFR for me.

[gsengle]

Used 430, indicator, 10k ish. Prob should do ADSB at same time...

For 20 I'd consider the new Avidyne 550 with synthetic vision... Free ADSB add on at this time...

For 30 add an aspen which integrates well...

40? All that plus a 440

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1964-M20E]

Avidyne IFD540, APX 322 or 340 transponder (ADSB out compliant)  (322 is remote mounted if you need the extra stack space) and new CDI  25 to 30 AMUs

keep one of your existing NAV/COMs

[Godfather]

Don't waste your money installing a gps without waas...

[201er]

2 hours ago, Becca said:

So our plane has got a new factory reman engine in Year 2; Shiny new paint in Year 6... finally time to bring the panel up to 2016.

The minimum requirements are "must have IFR GPS approach capability" and panel is so old, assume nothing would be compatible with whatever we install (e.g. we'd need accompanying indicators, etc.).  2020 compliant with upgrade would be nice, but not necessary.

Assume some DIY for panel prep, but professional install required.

How would you meet this requirement for:
10 AMU's
20 AMU's
30 AMU's
40 AMU's

Sell it and buy another that already has the panel 

[Bob_Belville]

Becca, assuming you have an autopilot and an EDM, for about 40AMU net of selling removed stuff you can have something like this: (I spent 50 including the new panel, GTN750, Aspen, JPI 930 and GDL 88. I already had the STEC50 and the Stormscope.) 

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Becca said:

So our plane has got a new factory reman engine in Year 2; Shiny new paint in Year 6... finally time to bring the panel up to 2016.

The minimum requirements are "must have IFR GPS approach capability" and panel is so old, assume nothing would be compatible with whatever we install (e.g. we'd need accompanying indicators, etc.).  2020 compliant with upgrade would be nice, but not necessary.

Assume some DIY for panel prep, but professional install required.

How would you meet this requirement for:
10 AMU's
20 AMU's
30 AMU's
40 AMU's

Depends on your intent. If you plan on making it compliant, fly it for a year or two and then sell -- I would buy a used Garmin 430 WAAS GPS and install a free flight box for under $10k.

If you intend on keeping the plane for the foreseeable future, I would make a bigger investment and add the features you want. Like Bob, I have no intent on selling anytime soon and adding the stuff I wanted has made flying a lot more enjoyable. If I am not mistaken, you guys have invested a lot into updating the airframe. Seems only logical to spend the extra money and make it a complete modern package.

 

[N9453V]

Becca, I bought my plane with a GNS 430W, S-Tec 50 and KCS-55A HSI, so all I had to do is add a GTX 330 ES Transponder to comply with ADS-B Out.

If I had a plan equipped like yours, I'd probably go with a GTN 650 (since long term support for the 430W is uncertain), a GTX 335 ES (it's a pretty cheap option since you'd have a WAAS GPS position source and you'll want 1090 ES since you fly to Canada) and a used HSI (I like my KCS-55A and it's been extremely reliable for the 6 years I've had it).

Personally, I have no interest in glass panels, since they add no additional capability. For ADS-B In, if I recall you had a portable Garmin and Garmin UAT receiver, so I'd probably leave that as is.

I don't remember what autopilot you guys have, but if you don't have altitude hold, I'd personally prioritize that before anything else (once you have WAAS approach capability and ADS-B Out compliance).

-Andrew

[bradp]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 It was a perfect time for it with OVC 1000, rain, and some isolated convective to stay clear of.  I brought along a safety pilot so I could log the approaches under the hood even if we broke out early.

Not to go too far off topic, but reference this clarification from the FAA.  If you were shooting approaches, the field does not have to be IMC for you to be able to log for currency (even though it might be a good idea to continue the approach in simulated IMC conditions).  The key is that each segment of the approach must be flow in instrument or simulated instrument conditions (i.e. The final approach segment), not down to MDA/DH.  So if you were flying ILS 35L at KAUS and you broke out at 1000, that approach is still Logable.

 

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2015/info15012.pdf

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, bradp said:

Not to go too far off topic, but reference this clarification from the FAA.  If you were shooting approaches, the field does not have to be IMC for you to be able to log for currency (even though it might be a good idea to continue the approach in simulated IMC conditions).  The key is that each segment of the approach must be flow in instrument or simulated instrument conditions (i.e. The final approach segment), not down to MDA/DH.  So if you were flying ILS 35L at KAUS and you broke out at 1000, that approach is still Logable.

Agreed... It turned out that all of approaches and the hold were logable as actual IMC. But as it was going to be marginal, I brought along a friend just incase and had the foggles as well.  I enjoyed having the company along, and didn't have to use the foggles.

[Andy95W]

CB solution I'm installing this year in my M20C: 

Garmin GPS 155 TSO with indicator plus Freeflight RANGR Lite = IFR GPS Approach capability and fully compliant ADS-B "Out" for $3,500 total.

[N9453V]

11 minutes ago, N1395W said:

CB solution I'm installing this year in my M20C: 

Garmin GPS 155 TSO with indicator plus Freeflight RANGR Lite = IFR GPS Approach capability and fully compliant ADS-B "Out" for $3,500 total.

Just be aware, that Garmin no longer provides any repair or support for the GNS 155, so if it breaks, you're SOL.
Also, the Freeflight RANGR only provides UAT, so you're restricted to operating below FL180 (probably not any issue) and may be subject to restrictions operating internationally.

-Andrew

[ArtVandelay]

Used 430, indicator, 10k ish. Prob should do ADSB at same time...

For 20 I'd consider the new Avidyne 550 with synthetic vision... Free ADSB add on at this time...

For 30 add an aspen which integrates well...

40? All that plus a 440

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forget the 440, for 40 get a autopilot, a good AP is almost required for IFR

[clh]

IIRC. They already have an autopilot with alt hold.  I don't remember which gps you have, but if it is approach certified, I would wait a year or two and see what the FAA finally does with the part 23 and the NORSEE  (I forget the acronym).  I think we are about to see quite a bit of change for the better.

I would not go to a 430w unless you were planning on plugging in an Avidyne ifd440 when it breaks.

Since it looks like you intend to keep the plane a few years, I would not waste the install expense and go with the newer GPS setups.  Expect to spend 20k all in.  GPS, Transponder, etc.

 

I also am waiting to see what sifts out on the ADS-B......  I expect it will be delayed.....

 

[larryb]

I faced these questions a few years ago after I got my plane. Lots of issues with the old King Silver Crown stack. I didn't want to pour money into repairs so I decided I would replace everything. Here are a few of the things I considered:

I had no HSI, just a DG. I wanted an HSI, and the only thing that made sense was an Aspen. G500 is nice but I didn't want to spend quite that much. I also wanted a battery backup for this HSI, and the Aspen has that. It also has GPSS steering. 

I wanted XM weather. This was before ADSB weather was out. I thought the GDL69 was expensive, but I could get a 796 for less and get a nice big backup screen. The 796 also has the backup 6-pack instruments. And the 796 has an internal battery backup with several hours capability. So I have some instrumentation completely separate from the rest of the aircraft systems. I had the 796 panel-mounted in an Air Gizmo docking station.

I didn't want any used gear. Used gear is expensive, not all that much cheaper than new. The install of the used gear costs just as much, if not more, than installing new gear. Shops get the new gear at a discount and can use that profit to offset some of the install cost. Without a big cost savings may as well get the latest in capability. 

GTN650 vs. GTN750. Sure bigger is better, but I was going for most bang-for-the-buck. So I got the 650. I am happy with it. Between the 796, iPad, and Aspen I have enough screens to display my data. I don't need another big screen, although I am sure I would like it if I had it.

For the 2nd radio, I needed to get rid of my KX155. It caused interference with the GPS and had to go.

Transponder had to go too. Who wants a vacuum tube in a modern aircraft? 

My old KMA24 audio panel was OK, but with stereo XM I wanted a new panel. The "rewind" button is great. 

So what did I wind up with? Aspen Pro, GTN650, SL30, GTX327, GMA350. Later on I got an iPad mini and flighstream 210. The only old components I saved were the backup nav indicator and the autopilot.

Larry

Oh yeah, I forgot about the GDL88 too. And this past fall a JPI 900. But now I'm done...... 

Edited May 11, 2016 by larryb

[jetdriven]

Heres the panel in our plane, to show you how far up we need to come from.
 Its basically 1977,
KMA-20 audio panel
2x KX-170s
KT-76A transponder
KLN-89B VFR GPS
KI-211 and KI-208 indicators
1991 engine montior that has FF, but only shows one data point at  time
altitude hold S-TEC 30 and a heading hold C-IIB.   but that's it. No HSI, no bootstrap output for stormscope, etc.

I fail to see any reason to invest in a King GPS, they are non-waas for starters, and the screens arent available.. They break, they're done.

Used 430s, similar feeling. Some of these boxes are coming on 17 years old and we are midlife through the next product cycle.  I might bite on a 530W, but how much cheaper is that than a IFD-540?

[RocketAviator]

You've seen my panel.  With all you've done to your plane I would recommend the GTN750 or equivalent, Aspen (you can get lifetime subscription fairly reasonable) & one of the less expensive ADSB options!  What have you heard about the latest on the lessor expensive glass panel options like EAA just partnered on with D?  Might be worth waiting. 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Heres the panel in our plane, to show you how far up we need to come from.
 Its basically 1977,
KMA-20 audio panel
2x KX-170s
KT-76A transponder
KLN-89B VFR GPS
KI-211 and KI-208 indicators
1991 engine montior that has FF, but only shows one data point at  time
altitude hold S-TEC 30 and a heading hold C-IIB.   but that's it. No HSI, no bootstrap output for stormscope, etc.

I fail to see any reason to invest in a King GPS, they are non-waas for starters, and the screens arent available.. They break, they're done.

Used 430s, similar feeling. Some of these boxes are coming on 17 years old and we are midlife through the next product cycle.  I might bite on a 530W, but how much cheaper is that than a IFD-540?

Mine started out looking very similar to your panel:

The after:

[bradp]

If in your position I'd consider:

1) keeping the autopilot.  You already have what you need for IFR functionality.

1a) add a GPSS

2) perhaps invest in an upgraded engine monitor.  You have a lot going on in your panel so perhaps 830/900 JPI or an insight.  It's over and over the thing I consider most valuable in the cockpit whether IFR or VFR. 

 

3) decide which floats your boat: garmin or Avidyne.  Decide whether you want all functionality on the panel display or you are an I-padder.  If the later the ifd 100 or an FS210 can take the least expensive of the brand G or A boxes and make them tons more functional.   There's not as much incentive for you to go with A as a drop in replacement as you are going to have a lot of install hours no matter what.  But... There is a lot to be said for the functionality and ease of use for the A boxes.  The 550 seems awesome (and probably awesomely expensive) with the AHARS.  

4) consider a xpdr with its own internal GPS source if you want to do upgrades piecemeal. If you want to do everything at once - it doesn't really matter as much you'll probably save on exploratory surgery parts of the avionics labor.  However, the internal source on the GPS allows you flexibility if you want to upgrade the GPS to WAAS later or would consider mixing and matching or jumping between brands in the future.  You wouldn't be married to STCs unless you want to display data on a panel mounted display and then you may be stuck with potential incompatibilities between proprietary data formats, etc. 

YMMV

[glafaille]

I'm thinking the OP is not afraid of spending money like some of us are, myself included.  Bearing in mind that he likely spent over $60,000 in less than 5 years on  a factory reman engine and a paint job, it seems likely that he is looking for more than a bare bones panel.  This sort of fellow is not going to buy a used 430W or a Garmin 155, only new, top shelf gear will do.

With that in mind, I thnk that something similar to Bob Belville's panel or Marauder's panel is in order.  Anything less would truly be out of character.  Therefore, I vote for the $40,000 panel and guess that the "out the door" price will probably exceed that..

[Jerry 5TJ]

You want a solid & reliable panel for IMC operations.  So I would start by replacing all avionics wiring and circuit breakers. Vacuum system hoses and pump replacement too if over 500 hours old. 

Sell all your present avionics. I'll assume you can get 3-5 for them  

Then I would budget for one WAAS GPS panel mount. A  GTX650 or similar  

If your transponder has a tube in it, plan to upgrade that.  Get mode S ES so (1) you are 2020 compliant (2) you can get reliable portable ADS-B IN operation. 

A good autopilot is high on my single-pilot IFR list. An S-TEC 30 at least.  DG with heading bug to couple to AP. 

Then go portable to fill out the panel on a budget: Aera660 or 796 as your #2 GPS and MFD. Portable transceiver with external antenna for clearance delivery & #2 comm.  Stratus2 or GDL39 for Wx and traffic info aloft, and for backup AHRS. An iPad with IFR chart subscription.  

I guesstimate all this can be had for 40 AMU net including 100 hours labor.  

 

 

 

 

[clh]

One issue for ya'll is that you have some major surgery to free up space for something like a 930 or 750/530w/540.  I don't see any easy to add them piecemeal.  You best bet might just be to layout the panel you eventually want and take a deeeeeeep breath.......  and liberate 40amu.

One real CB question is what would it take to certify the 89b for non-precision approaches?  That would get you in to most airports at 500 ft ceilings.   

You do have a couple of years before you have to be ADS-B compliant....

 

 

 

[jclemens]