Upgrade A/P ?

[TWinter]

Looking for some solid input on auto-pilots. I have recently (very recently..like just a few weeks into it) started IFR. Mostly the ground school portion. I've been flying right seat with a friend of mine just watching and learning while he practices some approaches etc.. What I've noticed is..I really like the full feature auto-pilot that will do full approaches. I'm not lazy and don't mind hand flying, I just realize there is a lot going on copying ATC and clearances. A good A/P looks like a game changer in IFR flight.

I have a Brittan Accutrk ll and just the a Stec 30 Altitude Hold only. The Brittan will follow a heading on my GTN750, but that's pretty much it. I made a few calls and tried to do some research, but not sure if I'm just chasing my tail.

Given the combination I have above is there a next logical step in using my existing system to be able to have the GTN 750 and Brittan follow approaches. I called STec and asked what they thought the next step would be to upgrade my system. The sales lady was not sure and the tech line had a long hold wait and I needed to get back to work. I mentioned it very briefly a few years ago to my shop and if I remember correctly they pretty much said that to do it right I would really need to make some pretty costly changes to my existing system.

Any good suggestions.. Upgrade my existing, add to it or compete change of equipment and resell my existing Accutrk ll?   Any ideas?. I know you guys always like spending another  guys money..

 

 

-Tom

[Rwsavory]

A good autopilot is indeed a game changer, especially for single pilot IFR.  We have a 60-2 with all the bells and whistles.  For me, the lateral guidance during an approach is more useful than vertical, however.  You could get an STEC 50 and be pretty happy.  If you're going to do a lot of cross country trips, I would get the top of the line, which I guess is the 55X.

[Marauder]

Tom -- the STEC 60-2 was the first major avionics upgrade I did in my plane. I flew mostly for the first seven years of ownership with a partially operating PC system -- most of those years IFR. The workload at times got really high and having an autopilot that I could trust would have made a big difference.

When my son was born in 1997, I decided it was time to put a real safety blanket in the plane and installed the STEC. The ability to fly at times with a workload sharing tool made the flying much more enjoyable. I took the time to give pilot reports, got updated weather and certainly felt less tired after long flights. I also taught my wife how to engage it and use the radios.

As for a safety benefit, I really wanted something in the plane that would give my family a fighting chance if I became incapacitated. The STEC with its vertical profile and coupled approach capability does that.

Flying with the STEC I got comfortable with the system to trust it on coupled approaches. One of the airports I fly to in New York has an ILS and it is the airport I go to when the weather is low. Knowing that I can couple the approach improves the situation by putting me into the monitoring mode of the situation and also gives me a chance to look out the stupid window from time to time.

But the biggest change after 14 years was the addition of the WAAS GPS. Now I can load an entire flight plan and concentrate on weather, approach plates and other tasks. And with the crazy re-routes I get, it is nice George is there to share the workload.

When people tell you that "real pilots don't need autopilots", it's true. IF you are flying VFR 50 miles to the same restaurant. For single pilot IFR, it is a valuable tool in the plane and well worth the investment.

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[Ftlausa]

A good auto pilot can be very valuable flying single pilot in hard IFR.  Being able to have the auto pilot "take the controls" while setting up or changing an approach can relieve a lot of stress.    

[KSMooniac]

If your Brittain works fine, see if you can add GPSS to it...best bang for the buck upgrade and will do what you want with WAAS hooked up. Autopilot options should get a lot better and cheaper in the next few years, so I'd wait on replacement.

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[TWinter]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

When my son was born in 1997, I decided it was time to put a real safety blanket in the plane and installed the STEC. The ability to fly at times with a workload sharing tool made the flying much more enjoyable. I took the time to give pilot reports, got updated weather and certainly felt less tired after long flights. I also taught my wife how to engage it and use the radios.

 

 

As for a safety benefit, I really wanted something in the plane that would give my family a fighting chance if I became incapacitated. The STEC with its vertical profile and coupled approach capability does that

This is spot on...well especially the part concerning the half and her fear of flying and God for bid something happening to PIC (me) while in flight.

From the progress I've been making so far toward the IFR, well lets just say anything that will help my less than epic learning curve copying and understanding charts, clearances and procedures will be beneficial..lol.

On the other hand as Scott said, it would also be well worth it to see what it would cost to add GPSS. All of the Brittan Accu and Stec Alt Hold  equipment was recently put in within the last 3-4 yrs. I can only imagine the wasted money of equipment and labor $s to remove and replace with a whole new system. When I had all the current equipment put in I thought at sometime I might pursue IFR, wasn't really planning on it so soon. Word to the wise..make a avionics plan with your future goals in mind. I'll be paying the price of poor planning I'm sure.

My busy time at work is over and we are in the slow season. Now is a good time to start IFR. We took a few long xcountry flights last year. While doing the trips VFR was great and we did not encounter any issues I think having the IFR would just reinforce a feeling of confidence in myself and passengers. We hope to continue stretching our wings with more and more cross-country trips.  I financed with a balloon note on the plane. It is coming up  for re-fi so now is the time to include anything I need to update in the plane. I had a big wish list since I knew the re-fi was coming due, now I'm narrowing down to the "practical efficient" wish list.  

For you guys that have been looking for a full Brittan system etc..Stay tuned and lets see what my avionics shop says. There may be one coming up for sale..or not?

 

-Tom

[Marauder]

Tom -- when I was at Sun N Fun I spoke to the STEC (Gensys I think) guys. They said they are working on an upgrade bath for our older STECs that includes a digitial autopilot. Also Avidyne has the DFC-90 that re-uses the STEC servos -- if they would ever certify it for our Mooneys is another thing.

It might be advisable to wait to see what the next wave of avionics bring.

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[TWinter]

Okay here are some quotes:  I had to swallow hard, but this is what I have so far.

Brittain is still working on approval on a compatible unit that will allow me to get the full approach capture etc..Jerry went into a lot of details (some I understood, while some I did not), but in a nut shell what I am really looking for is still pending with unknown release dates.

STEC- I called and spoke with STEC (Gensys) techs. They told me I needed either the STEC30 w/ GPSS or step up to the 55X.

Quotes from my shop today:

STEC-30 with GPSS comes in at $13,600 installed. 

STEC-55X - This will require moving some equipment in the dash and going with a remote audio panel (good and bad $$). Includes new DG, Auto Electric Trim and probably have to go with Garmin Remote Audio and the STEC-55X. A whopping $30,300

Since I'm rolling all of this into a refi either is possible. It's just that 30K is a lot of cash for auto-pilot.

I've already got more tied up in this plane then I would ever see out of it so I guess it will be my keeper until the end :). My intention is to get the IFR and then follow through with Commercial and Multi.

With this kind of money involved is a 55X that much better of a AP?. Looks like a 6 week order time on either unit. Two weeks install. I'll resell some of the existing, but will not even make a dent in the purchase of the new equipment. I don't mind doing it if there is enough difference because and I don't want to  wish later I wish I had done the 55X if it is that good over the 30, but we are all CB members. Thoughts?

 

-Tom

 

[Marauder]

Tom -- I won't tell you what I paid in 1998. It'll bring you to tears.

The prices of these autopilots has gotten crazy stupid. I would shop around to see if that $30k is real. I would have guessed in the $25k range.

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[KSMooniac]

Did you ask Brittain about adding GPSS?  That would by far make the most sense and take care of the most difficult portion of any approach.  Our planes are easy to manage on the glideslope, and I personally don't think it is worth an extra $10-15K just to get a glideslope capture.  I have an STEC 30 with GPSS and think it is a great system for our planes.  If I had a functional Brittain and GPSS, I suspect I would be very happy with it as well.

[TWinter]

13 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Did you ask Brittain about adding GPSS?  That would by far make the most sense and take care of the most difficult portion of any approach.  Our planes are easy to manage on the glideslope, and I personally don't think it is worth an extra $10-15K just to get a glideslope capture.  I have an STEC 30 with GPSS and think it is a great system for our planes.  If I had a functional Brittain and GPSS, I suspect I would be very happy with it as well.

I did and from what I understood they do not have a in house type unit. He did make some suggestions that would possibly work. He gave me the manufacturer names Icarus Sams, and Sigma Tek as possibilities. He really didn't expound about these options. Just mentioned they could be tied in for GPSS. The STEC 30 is really at the top of the list over the 55X. I would love to have the X, but that's a big $ difference. I have a call into a few other avionics shops looking for quotes.

 

 

-Tom

[KSMooniac]

Ok, that is good to know.  I have seen quite a few GPSS modules being sold after the owners upgrade to Aspen or G500, and I bet you can find a unit for < 1 AMU if you want to try that route.  It is far and away the best bang for the buck doo-dad you can add once you have WAAS, and I'd recommend you bum a ride with someone if you don't believe it.  I'd do that before going for a completely new system if I were you.  There is a good chance we'll have our choice of newer/modern autopilots in the next year or three since the FAA has finally shown a willingness to let the new stuff get into an old plane.  I'm envisioning a TruTrak or Dynon or Garmin full-boat system for way under 10 AMU...

Beechtalk.com has an active classified page to monitor.  Our own Alan Fox participates here and there and I believe he has sold some in the past.  

[Glenn]

I had a 55X installed in my 1967 "F" by Muncie Aviation http://www.muncieaviation.com/ a little over a year ago.  I already had an HSI, so I did not require a new DG.  They coupled it to my GNS430W and it is a wonder to behold.  I did not have the electric trim module installed.  It beeps when it needs to be manually trimmed. This saved me about $5,000.

I do not know anything about the model 30, but can tell you that the 55X will fly whatever flight plan I put into the GNS 430, including course reversals on an approach, and holds altitude way better than I ever did.

[TWinter]

1 minute ago, Glenn said:

I had a 55X installed in my 1967 "F" by Muncie Aviation http://www.muncieaviation.com/ a little over a year ago.  I already had an HSI, so I did not require a new DG.  They coupled it to my GNS430W and it is a wonder to behold.  I did not have the electric trim module installed.  It beeps when it needs to be manually trimmed. This saved me about $5,000.

I do not know anything about the model 30, but can tell you that the 55X will fly whatever flight plan I put into the GNS 430, including course reversals on an approach, and holds altitude way better than I ever did.

Taking those two items you mentioned off the total ( electric trim and DG ), that would have put you at about $23K.. Does that sound about right on yours? 

[KSMooniac]

17 minutes ago, Glenn said:

I do not know anything about the model 30, but can tell you that the 55X will fly whatever flight plan I put into the GNS 430, including course reversals on an approach, and holds altitude way better than I ever did.

The STEC 30 with GPSS (GPSS is built-in on the 55x) will do exactly that as well.  The only thing it does not do is couple to a glideslope and fly the vertical profile of an approach.  Altitude hold works just like the 55x.  It truly is a wonder to watch a plane of our class fly a procedure turn, or enter a hold and fly it perfectly despite the wind or funny entry angle.  

I suspect the OP's Brittain (if it is up to spec) would do the same thing if GPSS is added.

EDIT:  I'll add that several years ago I took a classmate up for a flight and demonstrated what a little ol' Mooney could do with WAAS + GPSS and he pretty much wept.  His B-1 couldn't do anything nearly that sophisticated!  He also didn't even have good Wx radar on board, and he was amazed at the little 496 + XM WX.  We took my 496 into a B-1 cockpit and downloaded some Wx (he took a pic to show it works) and then successfully lobbied the commander to add a few 696's to their squadron so they could make better routing decisions.  Huge cost savings vs. landing short or diverting to check weather, and hard to imagine a plane of that class didn't have the technology on board.  

Edited April 26, 2016 by KSMooniac

[TWinter]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Tom -- I won't tell you what I paid in 1998. It'll bring you to tears.

The prices of these autopilots has gotten crazy stupid. I would shop around to see if that $30k is real. I would have guessed in the $25k range.

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Chris, Please don't tell it's already been a tough start to the week..lol

[TWinter]

23 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

The STEC 30 with GPSS (GPSS is built-in on the 55x) will do exactly that as well.  The only thing it does not do is couple to a glideslope and fly the vertical profile of an approach.  Altitude hold works just like the 55x.  It truly is a wonder to watch a plane of our class fly a procedure turn, or enter a hold and fly it perfectly despite the wind or funny entry angle.  

I suspect the OP's Brittain (if it is up to spec) would do the same thing if GPSS is added.

I agree..Before pulling the trigger on anything I really want to put my Brittain through the paces and make sure it is dead balls on accurate just following a heading. I use it often, but it does require correction occasionally with fuel imbalance and stronger winds. I cut it some slack because the precision was not required as it is with IFR. Just seems to take time to settle in before following a semi-tight course(and I understand that is how the system works). I sometimes wonder if it's just older technology.  This is in contrast to my STEC 30 Alt Hold. It picks up solid and works perfect, no deviation. I've used the Brittian pretty regular over the past several years and I know all the servos etc are good. One was recently (last 6 mnths) serviced and the others checked.  I guess I just have some apprehension about the older ( but still valuable and working) technology.

If I was not pursuing more training and the opportunity was not there regarding the refinance of my bird I would leave well enough alone. I think my mistake was by flying with one of the other guys on the field and watching his AP couple up on the approaches making life easier. Made my system look kind of antiquated. We later tried a few approaches last week in mine and I was a flying train wreck trying to get lined up at my entries at the correct altitude while using my existing system...The fact he was not familiar with IFR procedure on my GTN750 and I'm still learning IFR procedure and data entry into it probably did not help, but it was pretty ugly regardless. Lots to think about.. Thanks for the suggestions

 

-Tom

[CaptainAB]

The best advice I got when I did my IFR was not to install an A/P in my plane. Hand flying makes you better, though it is hard work. Then after I was done I decided to upgrade to a plane that had one installed already.

 

[Glenn]

47 minutes ago, TWinter said:

Taking those two items you mentioned off the total ( electric trim and DG ), that would have put you at about $23K.. Does that sound about right on yours? 

Yes.  I had quite a bit of other work that was bundled in done at the same time, but I think the autopilot portion was about $21K.

[TWinter]

2 hours ago, CaptainAB said:

The best advice I got when I did my IFR was not to install an A/P in my plane. Hand flying makes you better, though it is hard work. Then after I was done I decided to upgrade to a plane that had one installed already.

 

Well said  On the other hand when I first got my PPL we had no such thing as GPS in the cockpit either. I like to think I paid my dues that go round. 

I'm now in the camp of if there is anything easy that will work and make me competent, but also help push the cart at the same time I'm all for it..

 

 

-Tom

[kortopates]

10 minutes ago, CaptainAB said: The best advice I got when I did my IFR was not to install an A/P in my plane. Hand flying makes you better, though it is hard work. Then after I was done I decided to upgrade to a plane that had one installed already.

 

Well said  On the other hand when I first got my PPL we had no such thing as GPS in the cockpit either. I like to think I paid my dues that go round. 

I'm now in the camp if there easy anything that will make me competent, but also help push the cart at the same time I'm all for it..

 

 

-Tom

Absolutely, that's great for training since those skills are critical. But then so is using proper procedures for flying approaches with the AP. But after training, one is going to want to avoid all but the easiest IFR weather flying single point without the AP. Don't wait till turbulent IMC and you need to divert to another airport alone and no AP to make that point very clear. It would become really hard to stay ahead of the aircraft in a prolonged IMC situation even in smooth air.

[takair]

I didn't take the time to read the full thread, so I apologize up front if I am repeating anything.  It looks like you have Accutrak, but not the Accuflite heading adaptor.  If this is true, you might want to consider that simple add on from Britain.  I've installed a number of STEC 30s and they are good, but the combination Accuflite and Accutrac is equally as good, perhaps even better in one way.  As I recall, the System 30 will track Nav or heading, but not both.  When you turn on Accuflite and Accutrac at the same time, you have a really well behaved autopilot that will perform nice intercepts and tracks really well.  You can adjust the heading bug to compensate for a stiff crosswind.  Nav tracking alone will not do such a nice job.  GPSS is nice, and I really recommend it for the System 30, but with the Brittain combo that I described, it will fly as well as the GPSS.  You only have to do the additional step of setting your heading bug to the new track provided by your GPS.  While not approved for approaches, I can tell you it will track a LPV or ILS rather nicely to the numbers with very little pilot input...especially if you keep your approach speed on the high end.  Not trying to talk you out of the STEC, they really are nice, but you have the basic makings of an equally nice autopilot for a fraction of the price.  You would need the Accuflite and a DG with heading bug.....which you would need anyway. 

[Hector]

23 minutes ago, KSMooniac said: The STEC 30 with GPSS (GPSS is built-in on the 55x) will do exactly that as well.  The only thing it does not do is couple to a glideslope and fly the vertical profile of an approach.  Altitude hold works just like the 55x.  It truly is a wonder to watch a plane of our class fly a procedure turn, or enter a hold and fly it perfectly despite the wind or funny entry angle.  

I suspect the OP's Brittain (if it is up to spec) would do the same thing if GPSS is added.

I agree..Before pulling the trigger on anything I really want to put my Brittain through the paces and make sure it is dead balls on accurate just following a heading. I use it often, but it does require correction occasionally with fuel imbalance and stronger winds. I cut it some slack because the precision was not required as it is with IFR. Just seems to take time to settle in before following a semi-tight course(and I understand that is how the system works). I sometimes wonder if it's just older technology.  This is in contrast to my STEC 30 Alt Hold. It picks up solid and works perfect, no deviation. I've used the Brittian pretty regular over the past several years and I know all the servos etc are good. One was recently (last 6 mnths) serviced and the others checked.  I guess I just have some apprehension about the older ( but still valuable and working) technology.

If I was not pursuing more training and the opportunity was not there regarding the refinance of my bird I would leave well enough alone. I think my mistake was by flying with one of the other guys on the field and watching his AP couple up on the approaches making life easier. Made my system look kind of antiquated. We later tried a few approaches last week in mine and I was a flying train wreck trying to get lined up at my entries at the correct altitude while using my existing system...The fact he was not familiar with IFR procedure on my GTN750 and I'm still learning IFR procedure and data entry into it probably did not help, but it was pretty ugly regardless. Lots to think about.. Thanks for the suggestions

 

-Tom

If you want your accutrack to stay glued to the magenta line set your GPS to .3 mile full scale deflection of the CDI during all ops. This is a setting in your GPS. Set the accutrack to high sensitivity and it will follow a tight course glued to the magenta line making corrections at the slightest deviation from the track.

[TWinter]

6 minutes ago, Hector said:

If you want your accutrack to stay glued to the magenta line set your GPS to .3 mile full scale deflection of the CDI during all ops. This is a setting in your GPS. Set the accutrack to high sensitivity and it will follow a tight course glued to the magenta line making corrections at the slightest deviation from the track.

I'll give it a try..thanks!

[Hank]

Love my AccuTrak, AccuFlite and G430W!!