What should i get?

[carusoam]

How did your T/O calcs work?  Did the plane get off the ground in 2k' on the 90° F day?

If yes, How much margin was there?  Did the stand of 50' trees make a difference? 

Best regards,

-a-

[Samurai Husky]

@carusoam

I didnt run through the To/L part til just now; for the M20R.

In a M20R; I am swimming with the fishes. KPAO is 2440ft...... I come out to be about 2750ft on 90f day when using the averages i have seen at the airport and MAX take off weight. The runway is at sealevel, so that makes things easy; The Hg as been between 29.90-30.1 so i used 30.1 (-164ft); We normally have a 10kt head wind (which is about a -200ft to roll), but shouldn't rely on that. IF i had to clear a 50ft obstacle, i would be off the runway at Kpao by about 300ft; If there is no 50ft obstacle then i would be at 1650ft, if i add in the 25% tolerances, i would be at 2065ft, and clear with 400ft to spare. Still close; but doable. 

That said, if i wanted to take off fully loaded; I would need to switch airports and go to Henry Reid; which is about 3100ft (this is the 2nd closest to my house); The extra 700ft of runway would be enough to clear everything. 

A hot day in Tohoe is still ok; because the runway is 8000ft long, and i would need about 3000ft to 4500ft with 50ft obstacle. 

I think KPAO is s good runway since it is so short. I know there are shorter; but 2400ft is one of the smaller ones i have seen in populated areas.

For landing; I cant land until i burn off some fuel; I didnt go through the whole calculation, but if i took off at capacity; I would need to burn off about 28g of fuel (168lbs) before i would be in compliance to even 'attempt a landing' From there I would need to see if 1800ft is enough ground roll, since the chances of me landing on the numbers right now is about 10%. The 600ft would give me a good buffer to land; 

 

 

[Godfather]

I realize a lot of this discussion relates to buying a plane in the near future for finance reasons.  To give you a data point over the past 12 years the Mooney has averaged $160-170 per hour.  This rate does not include a reserve for engine & prop $35-40k or any loan charges / TVM.  Buying a newish plane with a glass panel will not IMO provide a savings from what you are paying now.  Instead it's all about convenience.  

I still believe if you keep flying the sr20 past an instrument rating and 250 hrs you could with good instruction transition to many different types of aircraft.  In other word 250 hrs in a cirrus is just as valuable as 250 in a J or 182RG...IMO, YMMV.

It sounds like you are disliking the sr20 because you have to fly it with your left hand.  I think with more experience you will find this is a non issue.  You also might want to join the other forums and read all you can on the days you can't fly.

[Samurai Husky]

42 minutes ago, Godfather said:

I realize a lot of this discussion relates to buying a plane in the near future for finance reasons.  To give you a data point over the past 12 years the Mooney has averaged $160-170 per hour.  This rate does not include a reserve for engine & prop $35-40k or any loan charges / TVM.  Buying a newish plane with a glass panel will not IMO provide a savings from what you are paying now.  Instead it's all about convenience.  

I still believe if you keep flying the sr20 past an instrument rating and 250 hrs you could with good instruction transition to many different types of aircraft.  In other word 250 hrs in a cirrus is just as valuable as 250 in a J or 182RG...IMO, YMMV.

It sounds like you are disliking the sr20 because you have to fly it with your left hand.  I think with more experience you will find this is a non issue.  You also might want to join the other forums and read all you can on the days you can't fly.

Mostly connivance. When i asked about taking a plane for a holiday, there were a lot of limitations. One of the major ones being a 'no pet' policy. I will ask if there are any places that allow pets; but i got the impression there were none. I was also unsure if there was a 'minimum' policy; I know at other clubs they have a 3 hour daily minimum or something like that; So even if the plane is sitting there tied up, it still costs a ton of money. Not sure if this one does or not; I will need to double check. 

Now that i think about the SR20; its not so much flying with my left hand, Its more of the 'rotation' of flying with your wrists. For example, in a car you can move the wheel up or down with either your wrist for minor movements, or your whole arm for larger travel.

In the SR20, you can only use your wrist side to side and you cant use the strength in your arm as a aid. For minor course corrections i have no problems, but for large banks (anything over 15*) i start feeling a lot of stress on my wrist. The 45's were the greatest challenge because i had to rotate to a steep angel and pull hard at the same time. This made it hard to keep the plane level through out the full 360* turn. 

IDK, maybe i have the start of carpal tunnel syndrome. I figured a flight yoke type plane would be better because you can use either arm or use more arm mussels than wrist to perform the maneuver. Its still early and can try again some other day, but its been the biggest problem with flying so far. 

 

[Yetti]

I am starting to wonder about your instructor, why is he spending teaching time teaching you the Autopilot and you have not even soloed yet.  Also has he taught you about trim? and throttle while doing steep turns? Lots of finesse in flying well. I grew up racing  sailboats and going fast in a small boats is about finesse. The Mooney is a joy to hand fly.

It seems like you are horsing the plane around. I used to do that then learned to settle down.

For the accident in the Cirrus the NTSB will probably take a year to report on it.  They were taking off and short of an engine failure I would go with stall spin that the instructor could not catch in time. Based on what you are describing and the Navasota accident it seems the Cirrus may not be the best plane to do the first part of your training in.  Hobbies should not kill you.

[Steve Dietrich]

On 3/28/2016 at 9:01 AM, Samurai Husky said:

I looked at the pipers, they were expensive and kinda slow; I think a beechcraft would be better than that?

As far as a Screaming Eagle; I cant even find one for sale when i do a search. Which is probably why it wasn't in my list. 

@carusoam

1. Not sure what you mean, Its not really a plastic bag, you can see that there are breathing holes to let CO2 escape. 

2. Like any device i would need one to see how it works; The reviews have been positive and they do make o2 saturation meters for dogs, so if i wanted to go full speed, i could get one of those just to be sure. I also have a vet in the family that i would consult. 

Its a fixed flow system, so in reality nothing keeps it from flowing to fast or slow; It might be something where i do a O2 meter and have to figure out the best settings. They absolutely will not go into a kennel; They will do more damage to themselves trying to get out than if i let them pass out @14kft. 

Needless to say, Im not about to take any chances with my dogs that could endanger them. If hoods dont work out, then i guess i am stuck at 8kft, but that also doesn't mean that i cant do test runs and at least try. If i got one (non-pressurized plane), I would probably fly my vet cousin out for a week and we would go fly down to PHX with the dogs, I would have her take vitals on the way and see how they are doing.

 

6. My instructor wants me to get a Cirrus. He is a die hard Cirrus fan boy and is very passionate about them. I think he even dropped hints that he would be willing to go into a partnership on a new one, but that just sounds like a bad idea. When i told him i wanted a Mooney he said 'Mooneys are good planes, but they are like old Cadillac. They were all people were talking about years ago and now they are just old cars. A Cirrus is like a Tesla, modern new and luxurious, its the new Cadillac' 

My instructor is Max Trescott; He wrote books on the G1000, IFR flight, WAAS etc. Im sure you can google him and find out everything you need to now

Nothing keeps me from renting, other than the cost, availability and the excessive requirements that need to be met in order to rent out a non-trainer plane. The rentals available to a low time pilot are pretty strict and once you move up into the better airplanes, they get much more expensive. For example, to rent a SR22 its about $350/hr wet. Though I am glad you brought this up because i went and checked our flying clubs site and it seems we do have a Mooney Acclaim M20TM/G1 for rent for $300/hr wet. but you need the following:   250 hours, 25 hours high performance, and 25 hours retractable.   Instrument rating required.  Minimum checkout time 5 hours unless at least 20 previous hours in make/model. So there is an additional cost for a check out as well. Which is something like 10hr for $250/hr or a 3hr min with a CFI.

I get the feeling that people think im 22 years old and on day one going to shoot up to 17999ft and fly to phonix on my own. Rest assured im not careless. Im 35 and drive a volt, excessive risk isnt in my vocabulary. 

So backing up a little; I'm at a place right now with interest rates, cash flows etc. where I can justify being able to buy a plane and afford it. So long as i stick to buying something in my price range, i will have no problems making payments and maybe even paying it down quicker. IF interest rates start going up, then i have a problem, which is the reason for me rushing a little. I would like to lock in the lower rates as i do feel we will be looking at 3% or more by next year, which on a plane loan puts it at about 8-9% vs 4.9%; That's about 10k difference per year and pays for many hours of flying. 

My thought process is to lock in the better rates, get a plane, find a 'Mooney' instructor and then use my plane to get my IFR, Complex etc. Once i have those then i can start planning trips and worrying about dogs etc. I dont know how hard IFR is, but i've gotten through Private Pilot Ground school in about 2 weeks. IF i were to go on a trip before IFR, it would be to PHX and through Palm Springs, which is lower than 10kft to get through (as someone else mentioned); 

By all means ask me more questions if you think you can better help me; Im not holding anything back, more or less just trying to keep the posts from turning into autobiography's. 

 

 

 

[Steve Dietrich]

For example, to rent a SR22 its about $350/hr wet. Though I am glad you brought this up because i went and checked our flying clubs site and it seems we do have a Mooney Acclaim M20TM/G1 for rent for $300/hr wet. but you need the following:   250 hours, 25 hours high performance, and 25 hours retractable.   Instrument rating required.  Minimum checkout time 5 hours unless at least 20 previous hours in make/model. So there is an additional cost for a check out as well. Which is something like 10hr for $250/hr or a 3hr min with a CFI.

 

You probably want to check on the minimum time for each of the club airplanes and also the insurance time requirements for the Mooney . 

 

As one of the prior posts noted ,  like sailing, you'll be a better pilot if you learn in something that has more of a stick and rudder component to it. You should not be a systems operator .

 

The obvious answer is to fly solo in the smaller airplanes and take an instructor with you on trips so that 250 hours you are free to go. 

 

On your first  250 hours

50 hours to get your ticket 

100 hours in single engine fixed gear club airplane plus some retractable-    cross country flying  take instructor when you need ifr

Get signoff for high performance  aircraft so you can log time flying right seat with others.

30 hours - glider rating , seaplane,  acro , mountain flying,  (these will really help your basic flying skills)

50 hours - commercial and instrument rating  (some may be flying your normal trip with a high performance airplane and instructor

20 hours transition

 

By the time you are ready for IFR the game is likely to change with garmin moving to the back seat (per some friends who know a lot more than I do about this stuff

 

There's nothing magical about the numbers other than meeting the regs and the insurance requirements. 

Try to also get in some right seat flying with some really professional pilots - if you are qualified to fly the airplane you can log that part of the

time you are sole manipulator . 

 

as a confirmed GOG (grouchy old guy)  we do a great disservice putting newbie ifr pilots in high performance single engine aircraft and then turning them loose to fly cross country  with little real world experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Steve Dietrich

[Samurai Husky]

19 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I am starting to wonder about your instructor, why is he spending teaching time teaching you the Autopilot and you have not even soloed yet.  Also has he taught you about trim? and throttle while doing steep turns? Lots of finesse in flying well. I grew up racing  sailboats and going fast in a small boats is about finesse. The Mooney is a joy to hand fly.

It seems like you are horsing the plane around. I used to do that then learned to settle down.

For the accident in the Cirrus the NTSB will probably take a year to report on it.  They were taking off and short of an engine failure I would go with stall spin that the instructor could not catch in time. Based on what you are describing and the Navasota accident it seems the Cirrus may not be the best plane to do the first part of your training in.  Hobbies should not kill you.

I have no idea, just going along with the syllabus; I think we are in the part of training where he wants to introduce me to all of the concepts first and then go back and revisit them? We didnt spend a ton of time on auto pilot; Just how it works in the Cirrus, why you cant fall asleep with it on etc. I would say we spent maybe 30mins maybe 45 on it. 

For trim, it was a quick 5 min thing; Here  is the trim button (its electronic) away from you down, towards you up; left goes left, right goes right. Trim as you need. I stopped trimming most of the time because we would go in 1 direction and i would have everything trimmed; then turn around and go back and i would need to retrim everything. If the trim button worked better, i might use it more; But the left right trim jumps; meaning anything more than a 1/3 second push and your way off; The up/down part is very slow. Its also the button for the autopilot disconnect, so sometimes you push down and forward and it gets stuck thinking your trying to disconnect the auto pilot. I am told that in the new models they changed the trim button for exactly the reasons i am saying. 

From my general observations; It seems at 2-4PM everyday, the winds change in the bay area. The winds go from calm, to windy and start coming down the valley from the north. Which makes sense because thats about the time when the marine layer starts making its way towards shore; Monday I have a noon lesson, so it will be interesting to see if the winds behave differently. I want to see if it becomes easier to fly. 

@Steve Dietrich

All of the complex airplanes require 250hrs and IFR; 

Not trying to be difficult, it just is what it is. Most other planes are 150-250hrs min;plus up to 10hrs check out time.  Only the trainers have no limitations and as you can imagine, they are in very high demand. 

http://www.wvfc.org/aircraft if you want to see what i have to work with (only planes at PAO); Maybe everyone can tell me what would be better.  Most of the barebone ones i would need some form of GPS that integrates with an IPAD; There are just to many restrictions around here for noise, airspace, wild life reserves etc. and the last thing i need is to be reported. 

 

[Samurai Husky]

ok; so i had no idea this stuff existed; 

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/ipad-iphone-android/ipad-gps-and-weather/stratus-2s-ads-b-receiver-for-ipad.html

Anyone have any experience with one? It looks like it got good reviews; 

I ask because, who needs glass if you can just Velcro 5 ipads to your dash an run this? lord knows it would be 1/10th the cost. 

Sorry for posting so much; just gets me kind of excited. 

[Yetti]

Look up stratux you can build your own ADSB receiver. So you know I am an IT guy.  The fun of learning to fly was learning what all the system on the airplane do and how they can work for me.   I intentionally learned on steam gauges.  The advantage of steam gauges is you don't need to translate a number in your head to make information out of data.   I have flown G1000 for about 20 hours, but you can't scan a screen and see that the needle is in the right place and move on. You can spend more time looking outside with steam gauges. 

[Samurai Husky]

LOL; that will be something i do for fun when i have the confidence that if my Pi melts down in the middle of flying i wont be SOL

One day i will try it out; so far i haven't actually been in a plane that has steam gauges. So i cant say for use how i would like it. I know that when we did PFD out training and i had to rely on them; It was too much. I couldn't tell what alt we were at with out looking and concentrating. Everything else was ok; Speed is easy (is the needle in the green yes or no); The horizon i would look at a lot because i still cant get the feel for if the nose it pitched up in the Cirrus or down. I always have it pitched up. 

LOL, i ended up needing a butt pillow and some towels to sit on so i could see over the cowl, because he was pointing out reference points and it was like 'i have no idea what you are looking at'; 

Im hoping that one day all of this just clicks; 

[bradp]

Please at least get some time in a C172/152 or a PA-28 without a G1000.  It's so much easier to learn to fly without being overwhelmed by all the $hit going on in the cockpit.   I did my high performance check in a beautiful 3 year old at the time G1000 C182 with an instructor who was furloughed from his day job right seat of an A320.  He stated over and over that the G1000 had a more capable setup that what he dealt with at work.  I was a sim junkie at the time and had hours under my belt so I found the transition from steam to glass and vice versa painless but given the choice 100 times out of 100 I would choose to do primary training in the old beater that's flown every week. Aside from feeling more confident in the engine- the de facto feeling is flier in a steam airplane with no autopilot versus system manager in a full glass setup.  Now this goes out the window once you master (and I mean master) flying and can handle the systems management stuff.  But the fancy glass pulls your head inside.  

Case in point just outside busy class B airspace in Boston with my instructor wth the synthetic vision traffic display getting all sorts of call outs, we see a glider way to close for comfort at out 2 o'clock high position converging and descending that clearly couldn't see us.  We couldn't see him because of the low wing high wing issue.  The traffic system couldn't see him because he has no transponder.  If we weren't mostly ignoring all the glass and really cognizant of keeping eyes outside we'd probably not be here.  

Learn the basics.  Learn the basics.  Learn the basics.  

Also.  Not now because you need to focus on learning the basics and because your bendix is doing a decent job for you - but once you feel more comfortable with the piloting stuff - have your instructor teach basic engine management.  This is often entirely ignored by primary instructors.  You will save $ if you rent by tach and more importantly, you are planning to buy an aircraft with an engine that will want to be loved.  Learn and lean during primary training.  

[bonal]

Man that's like a airplane all you can eat smorgasbord I would recommend you have a discussion with your instructor and get the hell out of that plastic plane. If I knew then what I know now I would definitely get some time in the Citabrias. You don't need all that hi tech glass you need to learn how to fly not be an IT guy playing a video game that goes 200 mph for real. I know you think very highly of your CFI but I'm thinking you might look for a different approach to your instructions. As for the tail wheel I will be doing some aerobatic  training in a Citabria stage 2 of my unusual attitudes training. Can't wait.

[Samurai Husky]

 It's only a smorgasbord for you  for me its like a kid standing outside the candy store, with the owner saying i cant go in yet.

But it looks like i can play with the Archer II; The 172's are always booked; I just looked 2 months out and there are almost no openings; So it looks like most people are doing what everyone here suggests and flying those.

The M20R is coming back in a few weeks; Just found out it was sent off for a broken Right Mag. So that is something to work towards. 

[bonal]

They won't let you rent them for instruction with a CFI 

[Samurai Husky]

I think you can. But there might be certain restrictions; For example, I can fly but the CFI might be required to do the landing and take off. I also know that not just any CFI can rent from the club. They all pay a fee back to the club for being able to teach there. 

Also before i let max get beat up too much; He did offer me the choice of doing a 172, a DA40 or the Cirrus. I voluntarily chose the Cirrus because is was a lot newer, nicer, and had a parashoot, which were all really good selling points. Also at the time, i didnt like the angle on which the cessna sat at; The Sirrus looks down, where the cessna looks up. I thought it would be harder to learn like that. The 172 was also more money. When i asked him about planes, he did recommend a 210; He owned a 210 at one time as was flying for doctors with out boarders from here to mexico. I should have said all this earlier, but for some reason i forgot. 

I dont want to make it sound like he's a bad instructor that is force feeding me. However, i do think he mostly teaches in planes equipped with G1000's after all, hes one of the best IFR CFI's in the bay area;I will need to ask him if we can take other things up if i am proficient enough. I just dont want to get side tracked too much; But if we are going to do 10-20 hours on landing, then i will see if we can take out other planes. 

[carusoam]

We've covered some important ground today...

1) Even good planes get ruined by newish pilots that miss the point about density altitude, and the effects of temperature.  Overloading a plane can be very hazardous.

2) A couple of iPads with with snazzy apps and portable hand built or purchased sensors add great support to flying.

 -  Good to have

 - Low cost

 - Not legal for primary navigation duties.

 - Even your worst friends wouldn't let you trust your life with them.  (Yes, people in the experimental world seem to do it all the time)

- Ever have an IPad crash, or stop running an app, or behave funny, or run out of power?

3) Getting the different experiences that other planes can offer is good.  Usually done after you have your PPL.  There is value to picking a good direction and maintaining focus to completion.

4) Trim is a magical tool.  It gets used continuously while flying.  Mastering a plane is knowing power settings and quickly adjusting the trim wheel a known number of times, then fine adjusting from there.  I learned how well trim works on my PPL check ride. The check airman demonstrated 'hands-off' steep turns in a crusty old C152.  The plane turned 360°, maintained altitude, and bumped through it's own wake, completely hands off.  Wish my CFI had shown me that first.  I demonstrated some really nice sinusoidal circles in the sky.  I must have forgotten he wanted flat circles at one altitude.

5) The standards for the PPL are nicely printed by the FAA.  They are called the PTS, or practical test standards. You may have a copy already.  They are available online, if you don't.  It helps to know what the limits are before doing the maneuvers and having to pay extra each time you bust a limit.

6) You get a lot of support from ordinary Mooney pilots.  And some extraordinary Mooney pilots too!

7) Combining a Stratus with an iPad and adding CloudAhoy you can record your flight and your maneuvers for later review.  You can set this up to work in the back seat of the plane and not interfere with your lesson.  You can skip using the Stratus but some features are not as good.  Ask you CFI if it's OK with him.  It is a tool that many of us use each flight. Traffic, weather, backup flight data, and flight recorder...  CA is quite a training device.  It recognizes and scores the maneuvers you complete...

8) keep learning. keep training.

9) Insurance companies want you to learn in a trainer.  They charge more for things they don't want you to train in.

10) join a club.  Attend a Mooney fly-in.

11) Get a Porsche, MG, Corvette, Mustang, Jag, Viper or Ferrari (mentioned in this thread, or in the photo album section, or in the garage of some of my favorite Mooney pilots)

Does the Cirrus you fly have the straight and level button on the panel?

Best regards,

-a-

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Sam,

there is nothing wrong with you looking around, just take it easy. Also nothing wrong learning with a Cirrus. It will take you longer to solo and to get your ticket in an SR20 than it would in a conventional trainer, but that time is well invested. If you can fly an SR20, you will not have a hard time transitioning to a Mooney or other high performance plane.

As for conventional cockpit vs G1000 or the likes, there are pros and cons.

My plane is mixed. I have an Aspen EFD 1000 as EFIS and at the same time a full set of conventional steam gauges, augmented by a S-TEC 55X autopilot. They work well and they are manageable.

What I like about that setup is, that it has a rather extensive backup possibilities. Loosing the Aspen means, I have to go back to my steam gauges but not much else. Loosing any of the steam gauges means I can fly with the Aspen. Loosing all electrics, the Aspen will continue to work for about 30 minutes, as will my Dynon D1, which will actually give me some attitude for much longer. A dual GNS/GTN setup will therefore also be more failsafe than a combined setup like the G1000. Upgrading to WAAS was an easy exercise, as compared to what I hear from Non-WAAS G1000, which costs a lot more if it is available at all. In as so far, i am quite happy with the mixed glass/steam I have.

As for your plans, you can easily upgrade any existing steam  cockpit to this kind of setup. Any Ovation or Bravo will have most of what you need apart from the Glass PFD/ND. Most people today put Aspens in there, as they are most flexible. You can have any setup starting with one to up to 3 of them, replacing the whole line, and you can choose which GNS or GTN or Avidyne system to use with them. The Aspen will even allow you to couple those devices to legacy autopilots, which normally can not do GPSS steering without expensive converters.

Coming from a Cirrus, I know this may sound strange. And I know a lot of folk who swear by their G1000 or similar setups. My concern with those is simply that they are much more expensive to get, to maintain and to upgrade than mixed cockpits as well as have worse redundancy by the simple fact that everything is integrated.

So in that regard, MY choice would be to go for a conventional Mooney and upgrade that to at least one Aspen and two WAAS GPS sources. You will save quite a bit of money going for a non-G10000 Ovation as opposed to one which has it and you are then free to upgrade it to what you need, you can even go the G500 route, which will still give you money to upgrade.

[Yetti]

G1000 is great, but as said for IT people it will suck your head inside, because we are used to getting all our information from a Screen.  till that flight that comes back later than you thought and you don't know where the dimmer control knob is and it does not work and now both screens are totally dark. (The trick I learned later is shine your flashlight till you hit the sensor and it will light up the screen)   It was no big deal to land the 172 without the screen since I was used to knowing the feel and the engine sound.   You should be able to land the plane (and reuse it) without any instruments at night.  Think about getting to that level.

Since you are used to closed systems with the iPad, Garmin may be an option.  They are closed system also.

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Yetti

[dfgreene61]

"Because i am a numbers guy the thing that hit home the best was 'you bounce a money, your out a years tuition at Harvard' meaning, i dont stick the landing, its a 35000 bill. Well, that clearly puts things into perspective because i dont have enough confidence in my abilities to risk 35k on a minor 'mistake'; "

One bounce, no problem, two bounces, watch out, three bounces, potential disaster.  The gear on the 201 is pretty stout, I know, I've tested it!  The key to starting out with a 201 is to fly precisely.   Final at 80kts, over the fence at 70kts, keep her off in ground effect, work the up trim, grease it on ;0)

Takes a little practice but makes you a better pilot.  I was used to the Turbo Arrow which has more margin for error.  While getting used to the Mooney I was typically to fast over the fence and didn't hold her off long enough.  This resulted in a bounce and go around.  When this happens you have to go around and not try to save the landing.  It's the pilot who stubbornly try's to land after the bounce that can wind up with the expensive lesson.

 

 

[Steve Dietrich]

You're obviously serious about your flying.  In a couple of years you will probably be doing some serious flying  real IFR night etc. 

I think it's too easy to get Garminized in the early hours of your flying. You want to be able to control the airplane, fly precisely , monitor the health of the engine and keep your head outside the cockpit and enjoy flying. Traffic alerting makes a lot of sense.  If you don't learn this stuff now you never will .  You should be looking at the sky and thinking about what's happening and then occasionally checking weather.

A few years ago I was down at  Lockheed Ft Worth .  We were in the  F-16 completion building where there was a row of F-16s bound for various nations. The then latest Block 60 aircraft (bound for the UAE ) were filled with  digital screens and also included the big red button  (Mommie) .  A few aircraft down the row was an aircraft  bound for Israel , horrors a panel with a bunch of round gauges a few screens and a couple holes for their special stuff that would be added in Israel

 

Yetti's comment that the G1000 will suck your head inside is a sage observation.......

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Steve Dietrich

[glafaille]

Samurai-

Experience comes from doing different things, different experiences, different planes even different instructors.

Instructors are human like the rest of us some prefer teaching instrumenrs, some prefer primary, some multi engine and some like to only teach ground school or in the simulator.  It's possible that your instructor is the world's best instrument teacher but really doesn't care much for teaching primary.  He sees that money is not a problem to you and that you are enthusiastic so he "goes with the flow".  He might be great at primary instruction too.  The thing is that you won't REALLY know untill you take a lesson or two from another instructor or two.

So here is my suggestion.  On the days when your instructor or the aircraft are not available, check out another instructor at a different airport in a different plane (C172 or PA 28 or similar).  It might seem like you are wasting your time backtracking a bit doing maneuvers with the new guy that you already learned from the last guy, BUT, you will be gaining that experience thing.

Finally, the best instructor is rarely the guy that is the "best" at something.  It's often the guy that had trouble and learned to overcome.  

For instance:  Suppose you want to learn to play golf.  Do you think Tiger Woods would be the best instructor, or some guy that really struggled for decades with the game but finally became pretty darn good at it?  I think the latter, because that is the guy with patience and the EXPERIENCE in overcomming all of golf's challenges.

You are not locked in to any plane, airport, or instructor.  Go out and try different stuff but most of all have fun and be safe.  It's an adventure!  Drive to that little airport where the weather is better, the planes a bit worn out and the instructor a bit younger.  

By the way, early in my career I was an instructor.  I taught only instruments and was scared to death to teach primary!

[Samurai Husky]

So now I am confused; (note the next section is me saying ??? im not frustrated or defensive, so please dont read it that way)

Before the suggestion was to get a 182 and learn on that because it does about 80% is basically the same plane as a 172 so it would be a good learning plus gain complex time and it would be 'good enough' to get to 250hrs or so. My concern was yea, i can get one, but the cost to put glass in it was too much because now im dropping 50k into a 80k plane and since its not my forever plane, it would take a sizable hit. 

So then people suggested i rent. I expressed, ok, thats an idea i can rent, but i cant rent any of the fun things to build hours (post PPL). The only things that i can rent are the 172 which are constantly booked; The Archer II's are are generally available and pretty much thats it; What concerned me there was, is that good enough to build time in and of course, it has 0 Glass (which everyone seems to be in favor of);

So then i come back all excited and show off the ipad as an 'option' to supplement my training on steam. I know everyone says just learn on steam, but then there is no backup plan. Its sectionals and fly by guessing. Right now i want to concentrate on flying the plane, not on if i am flying into a MOA, or restricted area or some airports airspace. To give you an idea, when we leave the airport; we have to go 15-20 minutes away to do anything training just to get away form all the restricted area's.

Then someone else says, well ok do glass, but do an aspin, skip the garmen; Ok i understand that part; 

So you can see, im starting to feel like a ping pong ball. 

This is what I 'feel' based on the feed back; 

1. Continue in the Cirrus and get to solo; Right now its what i know and most comfortable in and while there are other options available, i dont want to complicate things by learning a new dance step. Once i get to solo, I can ask for a lesson or 2 in the archer and maybe a 182 to just get the feeling, maybe do a simulated checkride in both? I will Just have him there to allow me to check it out and as backup. IF he wont go in the archer/182, then at least when I solo i dont feel bad and can ask another instructor to do a ride along. I have a feeling it will be fine, but you never know.

2a. Depending on what happens with 1, either i can build hours in the Archer II which is all steam and considerably less to rent ($130/hr wet) vs the cirrus for 185/hr wet. At $55 i can buy a ipad and a gps  and have both steam and an ipad aid so that i can build good time without worrying about availability. But I when i asked how good of a trainer the Archer II was, no one responded, all i know is its like a slow cirrus with less technology. 

2b. I skip using any of the clubs planes; Get the T182RG, but not upgrade it with any Glass. Just keep it as is an just use ipads with sectionals as backup. Sure it will have a crappy auto pilot and i would be flying stick all the time, but that isnt necessarily a bad thing. If i had to, i think i could keep it up for a 4hr trip. The benefits here are 1. anytime any place availability. 2. Introduction into airplane ownership. 3. From what others have said its way more forgiving on the pocket book when it comes to annuals and maintenance. 4. There is a high demand at the flying club. So if something happens and i have to put flying on hold, i can do a lease back and maybe recoup at least the tie down fee. 5, the pups can fly too. 

If the accountant in me come out; 

I can get a plane for about 90k; put that on the HELC with a variable apr of 2.2% for 1 year which makes my monthly payments $350/m. After 1yr it goes to 3.5% etc. With everything else added in, i think im at about 13k if i do 120hrs of flying per year which is about $108/hr. So it would still be slightly cheaper than renting the Archer II; 

3. Get PPL either by a or b, and put some hours in. If i get a 182 i would be less likely to transition into a Mooney anytime soon. I would probably fly that for a year or 2 until I hit between the 150-250hr mark. Then i would check out a Mooney from either the clubs (if it came back) or see if someone else has one. If it meets the mission profile in that time, then i can start the transision process by taking few lessons in one as a check ride and go through the process of trying to sell the plane i have. 

4. The Mooney would be the IFR trainer, since the 182 will not have the equipment to do IFR training. So this step is really the IFR step. 

Thats about as far as Im going to go; The longer term is to get a PA46-Mirrage or a Cessna 340a. But right now those are drifting off into the distance. 

Comments? 

[dfgreene61]

You're way to analytical, go fly a 182, then fly a 201.  Your inner Yeager will point you in the right direction.  

Buying a plane is about freedom, utility, excitement, fun.  It's rarely makes economic sense.  

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by dfgreene61

[Marauder]

I think what you are reading pretty much summarizes the Mooney pilot community. Current and former military aviators, current and former 121/135 guys and then the rest of us knuckleheads with experiences that range from new pilots through crusty old pilots who have flown for years.

Going out and buying an airplane is a big investment and even if you can afford the investment, it doesn't mean what you buy will meet your immediate and longer term needs.

In my case I rented everything under the sun before I settled on my Mooney. The same Mooney I bought 25 years ago. It meets my needs today as it did back then. As my kids were getting bigger, I needed to rent or borrow a bigger plane, but it was not something that was required on a regular basis. Just for those vacations where the wife not only packed the iron, she packed the stove and the kitchen sink.

You got time to decide.

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