M20C Sat in Hangar for 10 years - Buy or Pass?

[glafaille]

I've been looking for an M20C or E for several months now and found an interesting prospect.  It is a 1965 model and flew as normal with an engine overhaul in 1997.  It flew about 500 hours up through 2002 and then was parked in a hangar until 2013.  No annuals were performed during this time but it was parked in a dry climate area.  In 2014 and 2015 annuals were performed by a Mooney Service center but the airplane has still flown less than 10 total hours since 2002.

 

The interesting thing is the airplane appears in the pictures to be a "Time Capsule".  The interior looks excellent, the panel clean and obviously updated before it was parked.  The flight instruments are in standard 6 pack order, decent late 1990's avionics, even an early Garmin GPS.  Easily the cleanest looking Mooney I've seen thus far although I have not seen it in person.  It's 450 miles away from my home, so quite a drive.

I have not seen the logbooks but the broker says they are complete except for the propeller logbooks prior to 1988.  It appears that some 337s may be missing and maybe an STC for the one piece windshield.

Here is the listing:  http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1298375/1965-mooney-m20c-mark-21

I know the price is too high as it stands now but I'm pretty sure he'll take less.

So what do you guys think, can I trust the engine or should it be overhauled immediately?  How about the airframe? I don't see a trim knob for the PC system so I don't know the status of it at this time.  I would insist on a pre-buy at a nearby MSC, hopefully Maxwell's in Longview which is 450 sm away, maybe a closer MSC.

Worth driving 6 hours each way for a look or should I pass?

 

Thanks to all!

 

[Yetti]

" an interesting project"  Do you just want to fly or work on things and have a great plane when you get done fixing it.   I would say $10K to fix it up to airworthy not including avionics.   Engines are a crapshoot.

[capthaak]

If it's been annualled by an MSC the past two years, I'd lean toward buying, as long as a cylinder has been pulled to asses the camshaft.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

If it will fly to Maxwell's and he gives it a clean bill of health, I'd buy it. It's a good basic C but with a cleaned up panel. 

1. Get an agreement from the owner that if you can agree on a price after seeing it, he'll allow it to go to Maxwell for a pre-buy at your cost.

2. Fly Southwest to Lubbock, and look over the plane. IF it's what you want, make an offer.

3. Agree to a price pending the pre-buy at Maxwell.

4. Write up a contract, put down a deposit and send the plane to KGGG.

 

[Raptor05121]

The fact that it went to a MSC somewhat recently pays a huge +1 to it. The panel looks fantastic compared to mine, I love the 6-pack. A pre-buy is going to be your best bet, and a borescope would give you a much clearer indication of how soon it needs to be overhauled. Any chances you could get a fellow Mooney owner to give you a lift, or anyone with any plane for that matter?

6 hour drive? Yeah I'd do it. I almost drove 11 hours to look at a car.

[jetdriven]

6 minutes ago, capthaak said:

If it's been annualled by an MSC the past two years, I'd lean toward buying, as long as a cylinder has been pulled to asses the camshaft.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You must pull two cylinders on the same side to evaluate the cam and lifters.  And really you should pull all the rockers and retract the lifters to inspect those too.  I think it usually starts with the lifters chunking out. Fine parallel scratches are the very first stage. 

[glafaille]

Thanks guys - Keep the advice coming.  

I'm hearing a guarded "Go for it" but be very careful as voiced by Yetti.  I don't mind a 6 to 12 month period of above average squawks, but I sure don't want a project.  At the right price, a more detailed pre-buy might be prudent, something closer to an annual.  Certainly I'll pull a cylinder, stick a boroscope in the engine and look hard at the cam.  Plus send in an oil sample, maybe the whole filter!

I guess, like every airplane deal it all comes down to condition and price.  Hopefully the condition is as it appears.  

[gsxrpilot]

Where are you coming from? Us Mooney drivers are usually easily convinced to go fly to see another Mooney and give our opinion on it, asked for or not.

 

[Guest]

During the prepurchase inspection have 2 cylinders removed for an internal inspection of the engine.  If it passes along with the airframe inspection there is no reason to pass.

Clarence

[Hank]

Some planes that sit are still in good shape. My C flew 9 hours total the two years before I bought it, including two post-annual checks and two potential buyers. Not sure if that total included my hour-plus, also, but it may have. I've flown her from 186 to 739 hours, and compression at annual a week ago lifted the IA's feet off the ground (78/80/78/80).

Dry climate is good. Last two annuals at an MSC is good. A knowledgable PPI is good, doing it at an MSC is better.

Check it out, hope it matches the description. Then haggle on price and the PPI--expect to pay expenses at least one way (maybe roundtrip if too distant), and seller to pay for airworthy items. Write it all down and get it signed before leaving a deposit and arranging the inspection. Then fly the wings off of it!  

[MB65E]

What would you like us to say?

Having been thru a 40k project, I'd pass. 36k vs 50k on a loan, might not be that bad. Then you might get a cleaner airplane that way. However,  if your paying in full, you want to have at least 10k cash to throw at it. We pulled the trigger at 41k and had to throw another 10k+ at it the first year. I had not found MS yet. I'm just glad we found an airplane that we can keep and enjoy now. 

-Matt

[glafaille]

MB65E

Just looking for advice from those more experienced.  Buying any 50 year old airplane is a financial gamble which I am prepared to take, but at the same time I don't want to be foolish.  Sometimes I get "Tunnel Vision" and need a reality check.

I just spent a weekend driving over 1000 miles looking at 2 airplanes, one of which was nothing like it was described.  The other was generally as described and is a contender though lacking in a couple of areas.  It's not a cheap or pleasant process (I hate to drive).  It seems that most planes are located in the most remote areas of the country, I guess thats why folks have planes.

I feel like I should leave no stone unturned, but at the same time, my funds and time are limited.  I ask for advice to help me decide which prospects I should investigate.  Most of the time it's easy to decide but this particular case begs for the opinions of others with more experience.

Thanks to you and everyone for your comments.  I read them several times over, and pick up on different points each time through.

[glafaille]

54 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Where are you coming from? Us Mooney drivers are usually easily convinced to go fly to see another Mooney and give our opinion on it, asked for or not.

I live in Tyler, Texas about 45 miles West of Don Maxwell and 100 miles East of Dallas.  It's probably almost as fast to drive to Lubbock as it is to drive to Dallas Love, get through TSA, and do the entire airline thing.  

No deals on Southwest anymore, $230 each way to Lubbock!  I can fly to Boston for half as much.  I remember when Southwest sold tickets for the last flight to Houston from Love Field for $15.00! 

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, glafaille said:

I live in Tyler, Texas about 45 miles West of Don Maxwell and 100 miles East of Dallas.  It's probably almost as fast to drive to Lubbock as it is to drive to Dallas Love, get through TSA, and do the entire airline thing.  

No deals on Southwest anymore, $260 each way to Lubbock!  I can fly to Boston for half as much.  I remember when Southwest sold tickets for the last flight to Houston from Love Field for $15.00! 

If I were in Dallas, I'd give you a ride in a minute. 

So before you drive/fly/travel that far, I'd just ask a lot of questions.  Think of all the other planes you've looked at. What turned you off? Ask about those same things on this plane. Ask for pictures, logs, and answers to every question you can think of. Talk to the guy who did the annual on the phone. Did he check for corrosion, (there are specific places to look), how are the pucks, is it rigged right, does everything in the panel actually work, do the tanks leak at all, have all AD's been complied with, what's the condition of the windows, windshield, results from the last oil change, etc, etc?

IF all the answers are right, and you've looked at lots of pictures without the huge watermark across them, make an offer contingent on you seeing and flying the plane, and on Maxwell doing a pre-buy.  Haggle a bit on the price and if you come to an agreement... THEN call me and we'll fly up there and take a look at it. :-)

[glafaille]

gsxrpilot

Great advice, thanks!  You have given me my marching orders.   Tomorrow I'll be asking a few new questions that you provided, some I haven't considered.  I think the first question will concern the pre-buy at Maxwell's.  If he won't agree to that, there isn't much point in further discussion.

Hopefully, I'll have some news tomorrow.

Thanks also for the transportation offer!  I'll buy lunch and gas!

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

The fact that it went to a MSC somewhat recently pays a huge +1 to it. The panel looks fantastic compared to mine, I love the 6-pack. A pre-buy is going to be your best bet, and a borescope would give you a much clearer indication of how soon it needs to be overhauled. Any chances you could get a fellow Mooney owner to give you a lift, or anyone with any plane for that matter?

6 hour drive? Yeah I'd do it. I almost drove 11 hours to look at a car.

I really don't understand the "huge +1" for a recent MSC annual. What was done at annual is more telling than who did it. Not all MSCs are created equal and most of the "gotchas" on an airplane that has been stored as this one has are engine related. I'm not knocking MSCs, just pointing out that Lycomings all typically have the same problems regardless of airframe. Mooney airframes stored long term indoors tend to do pretty well. Lycomings tend to do lousy unless pickled. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, glafaille said:

I've been looking for an M20C or E for several months now and found an interesting prospect.  It is a 1965 model and flew as normal with an engine overhaul in 1997.  It flew about 500 hours up through 2002 and then was parked in a hangar until 2013.  No annuals were performed during this time but it was parked in a dry climate area.  In 2014 and 2015 annuals were performed by a Mooney Service center but the airplane has still flown less than 10 total hours since 2002.

 

The interesting thing is the airplane appears in the pictures to be a "Time Capsule".  The interior looks excellent, the panel clean and obviously updated before it was parked.  The flight instruments are in standard 6 pack order, decent late 1990's avionics, even an early Garmin GPS.  Easily the cleanest looking Mooney I've seen thus far although I have not seen it in person.  It's 450 miles away from my home, so quite a drive.

I have not seen the logbooks but the broker says they are complete except for the propeller logbooks prior to 1988.  It appears that some 337s may be missing and maybe an STC for the one piece windshield.

Here is the listing:  http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1298375/1965-mooney-m20c-mark-21

I know the price is too high as it stands now but I'm pretty sure he'll take less.

So what do you guys think, can I trust the engine or should it be overhauled immediately?  How about the airframe? I don't see a trim knob for the PC system so I don't know the status of it at this time.  I would insist on a pre-buy at a nearby MSC, hopefully Maxwell's in Longview which is 450 sm away, maybe a closer MSC.

Worth driving 6 hours each way for a look or should I pass?

 

Thanks to all!

 

Which MSC? Do you have copies of the work orders for the last 2 annuals?

[bonal]

I sometimes wonder how much was the most money spent searching for and on pre buy inspections of Mooney after Mooney and I suppose if one were looking at 200k priced airplanes as opposed to 36k passing on several aircraft might make sense but at what point do you spend more on your search than the problems you avoid. And with a 50 year old machine even the best pre buy is no guarantee that the thing won't end up costing more than it's worth. Please don't shoot me guys believe me I paid for my sins. Sometimes you just have to go for it. Having assisted on three extensive annuals I have learned enough to be able to at least rule out any bad apples before I would move on to a second set of professional eyes. Anyhow I digress, I hope you can find what you are looking for its hard to buy with confidence on something so old.

[bonal]

As for the one in question it does look nice and it has a jockey (glove) box something I miss from my Cessna days. If you like it then you should go see it in person and see what it's telling you.

[glafaille]

It's my understanding that the airplane was based at or near Lubbock Aero who did the last two annuals.  Lubbock Aero is a Mooney Service Center and acquired the listing for the aircraft.  So at this point the listing broker is the maintenance facility that performed the annuals.

Not the best situation.  I guess it comes down to whether or not they were representing the aircraft when they did the annuals.  All the more reason to do a pre-buy somewhere else.

I do not have the workorders from the last two annuals but I will try to get them.

[carusoam]

Driving 12 hours dulls your purchasing skills.  Buying something like this takes all the patience and purchasing skills that you can muster.

As for price, that is the price of a much lesser C that I bought in Y2K. Don't worry about the price as much as receiving everything  in working condition that is advertised.  PPI is still a good idea.  Transition training is still a good idea.

As for time capsule, the interior is not original and the instrument panel is not original.  Is the paint original?  Somebody spent a few dollars on the upgrades.

My C sat for a couple of years before I bought it.  It stuck a valve during my dual transition training. Replacing a cylinder cost about 1AMU. Landing the plane with not enough power to maintain altitude takes some skill.  I had my CFI working with me.

If you buy this thing while you are there, what is next in the plan?

You do have a plan? A plan A, a plan B, a plan C...

trip 1) see the plane in person. Decide to buy it. Get PPI. Organize training, insurance, and things

trip 2) return with everything in place. Buy it. Transition train in it on the way home.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[glafaille]

Bonal-

I can't afford to spend $200,000 on an airplane, heck my house is worth less.  I'm glad that you can afford the nicer stuff though. 

However, I have no problem spending up to $55,000 on the right airplane.  The problem is, over the last 4 months I haven't seen an airplane in that price range, meeting my requirements, without significant issues like missing logbooks, 25 year old overhauls, obvious corrosion, wrinkled fuselage skins, obvious damage, run out engines, extensive owner performed maintenance, etc.  Sometimes the problem is that the plane is located in a difficult to reach area of the country, or just too far away.  Sometimes the owner is the problem, they don't know how to email pictures, use drop box etc.  "Just come see it, you'll love it!".

Often owners don't have a clue about their airplane.  Not a clue what's in their logbooks, and they neglected to perform a pre-buy or had one done by a local A&P without Mooney experience.  Found some corrosion on a plane with a well documented corrosion repair of the spar cap.  Found more in the wheel well and tail.  The owner swore there was no corrosion on the plane and no history of corrosion.  Guess he never read the logbooks or 337s.  Drove 450 miles each way to see that!

Being the kind of person that leaves no stone unturned, I'm now forced to explore the lower end of the market in the hopes something can be found and improved to my needs without exceeding my budget.

Sure, the real answer is to buy a new one.  It's quite possible that owning a plane is beyond my financial resources.  

[DXB]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say maybe look elsewhere for a while - the plane may turn out fine but it's nothing special.  No clear prohibition against it, but there's enough decent C models that come up in this price range that lack the headache of trying to figure out if an engine that sat this much is going to be ok.  And I agree that an annual done by the folks selling it provides very little assurance, even if it's an MSC.  

That said, I've no special insight here - I wish you luck in whatever you decide.  C models are great.

[glafaille]

The process is much like walking through a minefield.  Proceed slowly and with great care, your next step could hurt! 

Carusoam:

The plan is much like you listed as option 1.  Find out as much as possible, negotiate the pre-buy terms, establish a price range, go see it, purchase agreement, escrow some dough, seller flies it to Maxwell's, pre-buy, negotiate, insure, pay money, fly with instructor.  

Almost forgot.  Take pictures and show my friends on mooneyspace!  Ask for more help from you guys when stuff breaks!

The good news is I work across the runway from Don Maxwell.  If I ever score a plane, you guys have someone with a plane to fly you home after you drop your plane at Don's.

[carusoam]

More thoughts, hopefully they are good...

Finding a plane closer to you that is flying is a good idea.  Your experience of visiting planes that are not well known by their owners will continue. Especially if you are hunting for planes of the deceased or those that have lost their medical.

Your budget of 55AMU is well off the floor of scrap or repo planes.

Don't be in a rush to visit a plane unless they have received emailed photos and complete logs.  If these are not available, the plane is not going to be one you are interested in.  It really is that simple.  The complete logs add value.  A seller that wants the best price for his plane will supply complete logs. How many owners do you know that want less than the best price...? 

I'm an old guy.  But I have scanned my POH with an IPhone.

Buying something that far away takes some skill, experience and/or knowing the person that you are buying from.

Are you a current Mooney pilot?

Is this the second airplane you have owned?

Has the plane been cared for by an MSC?

Is the broker known for handling Mooneys?

Are you a pilot or mechanic with many years of experience?

This is a list of things that add value to the Mooney purchase.  It isn't about getting a Y2K price for a 150mph plane.

Of course if the Y2K price is what you can afford, than the X-country purchases are the first to get away.  They are too expensive to travel that far unless you have the rest of the above list in order.  Some planes are better for somebody else.

My first plane was bought locally.  It lived outdoors. It never saw an MSC. It fought valiantly against corrosion.

The second plane was bought across the country.  From a well known seller of Mooneys.  It was MSC cared for. Getting photos and logs was as easy as asking for them.  The PPI and TT was all negotiated...

there is more to getting what you want in a plane than starting with the lowest price.  The lowest price pretty much assures you of a plane that needs a lot of work.

I used to sell machinery for a living.  Similar to planes in their complexity. Owners don't want to know how worn out the machines are.  Buyers have to find this out the best they can.  Most people selling are not outright liars, they often don't know proper methods of selling.

Best regards,

-a-