Starter Problems! Please help!

[Cwalsh7997]

Hey guys the other day I took a routine flight to get gas at Airglades 2IS, fueled up and then got in my plane to go and tried starting and heard nothing but a buzz and not even the starter trying to turn over, it's a brand new starter just a few months old. We thought it was the battery so we went today and replaced the battery with a new Concord battery and cleaned any corrosion off the connections and tried and still just made a buzzing sound when trying to start, we even tried hand starting and got nothing?? Any ideas??

IMG_1916.MOV

[DonMuncy]

Probably not the same, but on my Continental powered K model, at one time I had a similar problem. If I took the cowling off and whacked the starter with something like a 2x4, it would go. Eventually, my starter/alternator guru found a bad solder joint inside the starter where the post (where the main cable is attached) contacted the winding inside.  

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Cwalsh7997 said:

Hey guys the other day I took a routine flight to get gas at Airglades 2IS, fueled up and then got in my plane to go and tried starting and heard nothing but a buzz and not even the starter trying to turn over, it's a brand new starter just a few months old. We thought it was the battery so we went today and replaced the battery with a new Concord battery and cleaned any corrosion off the connections and tried and still just made a buzzing sound when trying to start, we even tried hand starting and got nothing?? Any ideas??

IMG_1916.MOV

Go to the Sky Tec web site, they have a nice troubleshooting flow chart which will help locate your troubles.

Clarence

[carl]

how did you get home? 

 Is the plane still at airglades?

[Cwalsh7997]

I had a friend pick me up, but yes it's still their and they say a mechanic won't be there till Monday.

[Mooneymite]

Was the buzzing as in the shower of sparks, or was the buzzing coming from the starter solenoid, or the starter itserlf?

Just guessing....it's the solenoid.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Mooneymite

[Cwalsh7997]

I'll be honest I'm not sure

[carl]

I used to fly to airglades  when nothing was there. Glad you live close Ha, Stuart. 

[M20JFlyer]

CWalsh

If during the investigation you learn you need a BENDIX shower of sparks 12 volt module..give me a phone call

i have one available 

if when you checked the battery you had greater than 12.5 volts on your multimeter your battery itself was most likely OK. Not knowing the model of your airplane had you noticed any prior symptoms or anomalies when asking the starter to work. There is a wealth of knowledge on MS and multiple topics on Mooney electronic system.

most times a simple link of  hygiene in the chain from battery to stater can locate loose or dirty ( corroded ) ??? I

I am going to jump on two simple -soap boxes -- for my part today

1. Purchase a multimeter and keep it in your plane  - it will pay you back X ten

2. Battery Minder -desulfurization model- ..keeping your battery topped at all times not flying. I do not subscribe to the battery tenders disguise battery condition ( if frequent IMC provide a safe alternate energy source for SA)

Any one want a BENDIX shower of sparks module for Mooney or other 

plyons820@yahoo.com or P 832.655.4203

 

 

 

[carusoam]

See if this makes sense... (I never had a F)

1) The Bendix drive needs to engage...  Always gets stuck without lubrication, starter usually spins without doing anything else. A good loud thunk can be heard when this works and everything else doesn't...

2) The starter needs to rotate...  That would require some solenoids to be functional.

3) the shower of sparks needs to operate...  To fire the plugs properly for lighting off the gasoline...

4) the starter vibrator.... I don't recall it's complete function...  My old firebird used a vibrator to get past a dead spot on the starter's core.  Vibrator=hammer tapping...  Probably not the same issue in aviation...

Consider reviewing the wiring drawing in your POH.  Following this logic, makes me believe a solenoid may misbehaving.  Use a volrmeter to define how it is not working and swap it for a new one.

Of course this is a real mechanics job.  I am just a PP.

hoping that helps,

-a-

[kerry]

I once had starter problems at a remote air-park in Arizona.  My friend who has many years of hand propping experience was able to hand prop my Mooney.  It started on the 1st try.  I was very thrilled to get the plane home so I could work on the starter. 

[Marauder]

13 hours ago, Cwalsh7997 said:

Hey guys the other day I took a routine flight to get gas at Airglades 2IS, fueled up and then got in my plane to go and tried starting and heard nothing but a buzz and not even the starter trying to turn over, it's a brand new starter just a few months old. We thought it was the battery so we went today and replaced the battery with a new Concord battery and cleaned any corrosion off the connections and tried and still just made a buzzing sound when trying to start, we even tried hand starting and got nothing?? Any ideas??

IMG_1916.MOV

The buzzing sound, if it is coming from the front of the plane is most likely the bendix failing to extend and engaging. I would spray some silicone in that area. If you don't have the lower cowl enclosure, it is pretty easy to get to. Just lubricate inside of the bulbous shape.

if the buzzing is coming from the area just in front of the co-pilot, near the firewall, it probably is the shower of sparks but the engine should still crank over. 

Let us know how you make out.

[Mooneymite]

Unless the problem is in the key-switch there should always be the buzzing from the shower of sparks box.  If it's buzzing and the starter isn't turning, that's a clue.

[Yetti]

There could be a solenoid on the pilot firewall. Jumper the right side (battery to the small terminal (energize))  If the solenoid is good the starter will turn. If bad then Take some heavy gauge wire and jumper across the terminals.   Could be the starter switch which energizes the solenoid.   There is a remount SB for that solenoid

[Steve65E-NC]

Yetti is on the right track.  The buzzing is just the shower of sparks.  I predict that the jump from the small terminal to the plus wire on the solenoid will show the starter and solenoid to be fine.  Just a quick touch will suffice.  You do not want to start the beast.  Be sure plane is tied secure, mixture off, and prop clear.  Now you have test proven or isolated the problem to the solenoid or starter.  If both perform, move to the starter switch.  If your A&P will cooperate, start by loosening the retaining nut for the starter switch on the face of the panel.  Switch and wiring harness will fall back for easy access through the removable panel in front of the wind screen. Very Carefully label or number each wire and make a sketch of where each wire and shield goes.  Remove switch.  On a clean work table with a white towel work cloth recommended, disassemble the switch.  You will have three little springs and three little triangular contacts trying to escape.  Inspect the contact plate on the back terminal sub-assembly.  Look at the wiring diagrams and you can determine the imbedded contacts that activate the solenoid.  I predict you will find a nice carbon insulating coat over one or both of those contacts.  Some folks have used 600 grit or finer polishing paper to polish up all the contacts and the plate.  Carefully reassemble, as long as you keep the little contacts and springs under control, it goes together pretty easily.   Alternately you can purchase a new ignition switch.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Steve65E-NC
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[Mcstealth]

What Steve is describing above, is what is lacking in todays newish mechanics and their thoughts. Remove and replace, is the norm today, other than diagnose, and repair.

 

 

[orionflt]

On 12/26/2015 at 6:14 PM, Mooneymite said:

Was the buzzing as in the shower of sparks, or was the buzzing coming from the starter solenoid, or the starter itserlf?

Just guessing....it's the solenoid.

+1 a lot of times the solenoids can cause problems that are hard to track down just because they seem to be working fine but infact they are not allowing enough amperage to pass thru due to burnt or worn contacts.

BTW the master solenoid can be an issue and be masked due to the fact that everything else works but the airplane wont start or the starter is slow spinning.

Brian

Edited December 30, 2015 by orionflt

[Matt Ward]

Sorry to dig up an old topic but maybe this will be helpful to someone. I had a starter issue at KMTJ yesterday that I was afraid would leave me AOG for a while. A video is below. Bottom line was the problem was the jumper wire between the starter and solenoid needed to be recrimped as it had come lose.  The guys at Western Skyways fixed me up and had me on my way in less than an hour. 
 

[skykrawler]

Hard to tell from the video but the red and green lights on the panel DIM like the starter is pulling current.  They may dim with just the solenoid but I would think not so much.

It is hard to hand prop a hot engine.   It will probably hand prop easy from cold - although I have never hand-propped an airplane with a shower of sparks type ignition.

[MikeOH]

If you choose to disassemble the starter switch be aware that the electrical contacts that you are cleaning are typically plated with a VERY thin layer (possibly only 50 micro inches) of special metal that will withstand making and breaking current without corroding away.  If you use ANY kind of abrasive you WILL remove that plating and the 'fix' will be VERY temporary.

Cleaning ONLY!

After which you can examine the contact area with an eye lupe/magnifier to see if the plating has already been worn away.  I.e., the switch is worn out.

Sometimes, new does make sense versus repair.

[carusoam]

Matt,

did you get a pic of the faulty crimp?

Congrats on a quick fix.
 

Your problem finding / defining is pretty good!

Best regards,

-a-

[Matt Ward]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Matt,

did you get a pic of the faulty crimp?

Congrats on a quick fix.
 

Your problem finding / defining is pretty good!

Best regards,

-a-

No, I should have. The MX was able to feel it and remarked it was “loose”. They detached the wire, recrimped, reinstalled, and turnEd the key to verify the prop bumped. It did. Reinstalled the cowling and off I went.  I am replacing the wire with new now. The reason I posted was simply in the event the video is illustrative to someone. It’s pretty disheartening to turn the key and the prop not cooperate!

[Yourpilotincommand]

So much good advice here....  I offer this...

if this is a Skytec starter, perhaps the protection pin on the bendix gear sheared. The starter comes with spare pins tucked inside.

[Yourpilotincommand]

I saw the video. That buzzing sounds like the SOS, good. Likely a starter solenoid or the starter motor itself. First check all cable connections. Do you hear the starter solenoid click when you push the key in?

[Steve65E-NC]

So, tell us what happened and what the diagnosis and fix were.  Also would be nice to know Brand and Model of Starter.  Was it a Sky Tec or something else?