Ripped off from my annual inspection

[pinerunner]

I guess I just lucked out in this regard. I was shopping around for a nearby airport to hangar my new bird to be and the small town airport nearby, Pittsfield (2B7), had low rates for unheated hangar ($150/mo). While I was there poking around there one fellow I was talking to who had flown in from a few airports away to get his annual done told me why he had come so far. I went with the hangar and my first annual was just $2000 plus the cost of installing a new EI UBG-16 which I had ordered. The owner has been in aviation all his life (his father ran the airport before him), and went to college for his mechanics training. While not an MSC he had done his homework on a previous Mooney and rented the adjustment tools to get the manual landing gear right. Curtis Air is also the goto place for a couple of old Beech D-18s one of which flies in from two states away because they like the work and expertise. I can save money on the next annual by taking off all the inspection covers myself (they charge for that time apparently). I'm not depending on just them to head off possible future corrosion problems; I'm also learning as much as possible myself and this year installing Bruce Jaegar's Spatial interior to make inspection easier.  To make it even better my instrument instructor hooked me up with an older semi-retired mechanic with a pretty broad experience who's willing to help me with special projects and let me turn my own wrench a bit for just $25/hr (he doesn't have to pay secretaries).

I don't believe it has to be an MSC but finding good mechanics isn't trivial. If you keep your personal "radar" turned on and make the right connections you can fly a Mooney and not get screwed. If you're going to fly and own a vintage plane you should get involved and as intimate with it mechanically as practical. It's part of the fun too.

Having to pay for their education in resealing your tank would make me livid. I bet you're not their only dissatisfied customer.

[MyNameIsNobody]

8 hours ago, rblauson said:

I just reread your post. For the record nowhere do I ask for anyone to feel sorry for me. I asked for advice.

It was unsolicited and "Free" of charge.  Didn't ask for advise in the title.  You provided a past tense statement as to what happened.  Kind of hard to provide advise after the "It" already hit the fan.  Compromise Shrompromise.  You got rolled.  My advise is to others.  Don't get rolled like you out of ignorance?  Lack of communication?  A trusting nature?  A lack of interest?  More money than cents-sense?I

I repeat: "As long as there are customers like you...and there always will be customers like you...There will be mechanics like him. Either take it silently "like a man"...Ask for HELP early and admit that YOU F'd up and chose poorly on a shop and didn't get information clarified up front...Or write up and after taking report discussing specifically where YOU failed and what you have learned to prevent it from happening to others.  Look in the mirror.  See that guy?  You got rolled BECAUSE OF HIM.  Live and learn.  Learn and live.

I got rolled on my purchase of a plane.  IT happened to me too by being that guy.  I blame no one but myself....

 

But alas, I DID NOT HAVE MOONEYSPACE.

You DID.

[DAVIDWH]

Sticky Wicket,

However, concerning payment, I have found that after payment with American Express and then a written protest when monthly invoice is presented usually turns out very well for the card holder. I learned this with e-bay purchases. Presently, a disputed bill has never had to be paid. Am. Express seems to be biased toward the card holder.

Just a thought.

Sorry for the mess.

[Steve65E-NC]

I learned a lesson on my first annual on a new to me aircraft in about 1981.  The shop said it needed new seats belts, it probably did.  However, they ran a two shift operation.  In the four weeks that we waited for the belts, every night my airplane collected a little time, though there was nothing to be done on it.  It mounted up and up. This came from the curse of a mandated project for every minute on the time card.  When I got my bill I went through the roof.  A quick review of the times charged and the dates caused the shop manager to back down and produce a more realistic bill. 

So, if the shop tells you that they are waiting on parts, I advise that you tell them to put your aircraft in "time card" dormant status until the parts arrive.  Never be afraid to argue about an inflated bill.  Also, if your aircraft is left in the shop waiting for parts make it clear that you will want to review all time charges during that period.  

[kortopates]

This is why www.SavvyMX.com does so well saving inexperienced owners from these kinds of experiences by representing their interest with the shop performing the work; all for a very modest fee.  We've supported a number of Mooneys over the years too.

But anyone can do the same thing if you just follow the same guidelines we do at Savvy for Annuals:

1) Get a written estimate for the Inspection portion first which may include the typical oil change and filter and additional filters, boroscope exam;, gas cap O-rings etc called out for replacement at annual. Once the estimate has been reviewed; only then give the shop authorization to do the inspection including any agreed to work such as the oil change; boroscope etc. But no work is yet authorized beyond the agreed too inspection.

2) the inspection process is to provide a written list of discrepancies with estimates. The list is reviewed with the owner along with the estimated cost of parts & labor. The owner then decides which estimated items to complete. One of the things Savvy helps the owners with is sifting through the items that are truly required or strongly recommended (like  the 500 hr Mag IRAN) from the optional non-required items like cleaning fuel injectors or more commonly avoiding a full top overhaul when only one cylinder needs to come off for repair. Savvy also work with the shop to give you options for repair - such as getting you estimates for repairing your part, overhauling your part or replacing your part etc with different cost and downtimes.

3) Only then the shop is authorized to perform the work agreed too by the owner and the shop provides an estimated time of completion based on the repairs.

This leads to minimal surprises where everyone is satisfied and work gets done according to estimated cost and schedule.

If a shop won't abide by these very simple terms, Savvy won't use them and neither should you!

Many owners learn this the hard way but manage to learn how to do this on their own. Others whom have very little understanding of their planes maintenance requirements or just wish to have a professional help and advise them continue to use the service. Regardless though, just following the same basic steps will keep knowledgeable owners from experiencing big unnecessary surprises.

[Openwheeler3]

I use SavvyMX as well and they have been very helpful to me. Haven't done an annual yet but they really helped with engine work. I called a bunch of shops on my own first and half of the people acted like I was crazy. Savvy helped fund a good shop and sort out the details. I'm still detail oriented on my airplane's maintenance but they help provide other options and shops that have good reputations.

[rblauson]

"My name is nobody" lol , you seem to have a chip on your shoulder.??  

I admitted I made the mistake of dealing with that shop.  I learn from my mistakes. They won't get my business again. 

Cheers whatever your name is -

[MyNameIsNobody]

Duly noted.  I will scrub extra hard next shower.  I am trying to help others learn so that they can make better decisions before something like this happens.  You stated that you were "ripped off".  I stated that I believe a lack of communication BEFORE service and taking charge...stating clearly what you want, prior to a potentially expensive service can make the difference.  Knowledge IS power.

Congratulations on "Owning it".  I am glad you learn from your mistakes.  My hope is that others may also do the same.  If you just needed a hug and for everyone to agree and I did not so I have a "chip"...I will own that.

Good day sir.

[rblauson]

Not to beleaguer the point but just because I did not do the "pre" inspection items in this case that you recommend does not give any shop the right to rip anyone off. It just makes it far easier on them .:) 

[rblauson]

22 hours ago, DAVIDWH said:

Sticky Wicket,

However, concerning payment, I have found that after payment with American Express and then a written protest when monthly invoice is presented usually turns out very well for the card holder. I learned this with e-bay purchases. Presently, a disputed bill has never had to be paid. Am. Express seems to be biased toward the card holder.

Just a thought.

Sorry for the mess.

I paid with AMEX ...:)

duly noted and I hope I don't have to dispute it.

[Guest]

On December 21, 2015 at 11:33 AM, DAVIDWH said:

Sticky Wicket,

However, concerning payment, I have found that after payment with American Express and then a written protest when monthly invoice is presented usually turns out very well for the card holder. I learned this with e-bay purchases. Presently, a disputed bill has never had to be paid. Am. Express seems to be biased toward the card holder.

Just a thought.

Sorry for the mess.

Let me get this right.  After making a settlement agreement with the shop, you make a payment on your Amex card, then when the Amex statement arrives you file a protest and get Amex to reverse the payment?  

Thats a pretty dirty game in my opinion, really no better than the conduct of the shop who "may have ripped off" the OP.  You're making an agreement with the shop with the full intention of backing out.  You're as much as what it wrong with this industry as the shop involved.

We have not heard the shop's side of the story yet, so its all speculation and heresy.

Clarence

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I don't think the AMEX angle applies here.  The shop can turn around and place a lien on the plane and then you can't sell it until it's resolved. This isn't like getting ripped off by BestBuy or Ebay over a TV.

[DAVIDWH]

Let me get this right.  After making a settlement agreement with the shop, you make a payment on your Amex card, then when the Amex statement arrives you file a protest and get Amex to reverse the payment?  

Thats a pretty dirty game in my opinion, really no better than the conduct of the shop who "may have ripped off" the OP.  You're making an agreement with the shop with the full intention of backing out.  You're as much as what it wrong with this industry as the shop involved.

We have not heard the shop's side of the story yet, so its all speculation and heresy.

Clarence,

"A dirty game?"

 I do not see a victimized plane owner as being in the wrong at all. I see it as possibly attempting to correct a wrong.. What are your remedies? Talk, argue, be reasonable??

Good luck with that one, your aircraft will still not be released until, the bill is paid. Hire an attorney? That would be great if you like to pay legal fees and spend your time in court.

And if you want to talk about a dirty game, yes,  many shops are a dirty game and often act as a carnivorous predator on unsuspecting aircraft owners. I can cite several examples if you have the time, just from my own experience

. If a mechanics lein is filed,(Good)  that is when a compromise can be reached. The shop doesn't care about court time or paying legal fees either.

A certain amount of trust is paramount on both sides, but when that trust is breached, they are not your  friends and niceties (PC) in my opinion,

should be over.

[Guest]

The original poster says he made a settlement with the shop, we don't know what it was, it's between him and the shop.  If he didn't like the settlement he was free to hire a lawyer and seek his remedy in courts.  

Making the agreement then using Amex to back out as you are suggesting means there was no agreement at all.

I would hope that the agreement is in writing and signed by both parties.  It would be a good basis for a lien by the shop and having Amex support the payment.

For every "victim owner" there are just as many "victim shops" screwed over by unscrupulous owners, the pendulum swing both ways.  I've run a maintenance business for 25 years so I have a bit of first hand knowledge as well.

Clarence

[rblauson]

Clarence, I do not doubt that a bit. There are unscrupulous people everywhere. For the record I never once said I would back out of my Amex payment to him. Another mooneyspace member only recommended I do that if I had no other choice. The owner and I agreed to a settlement and I paid him in full for the amount we agreed on. I did my part for the shop owner. The only thing he did not supply back to me ( I just sent him an email requesting it ) is a receipt that now accurately reflects what I paid him and that I am paid in full. Hopefully he will supply it. If he does not I will obviously be worried accordingly-

Cheers and Merry X Mas

Mark

 

[rblauson]

Where are you guys getting that I revered the Amex payment - I DID NOT- I REPEAT I DID NOT DO THAT.

an agreement is an agreement 

 

[rblauson]

So Clarence you need to read your facts before you make assumptions like that 

 

[rblauson]

I'm almost more amazed at the vitriol this subject has created. If what happened to me happened to any of you I am certain all of you would be angry in your own way. The only difference between any of you gentlemen might be the method you chose to proceed. In the end I felt I did the right thing by compromising and avoiding an unnecessary battle. Lessons for me learned. Next time I'll choose much more carefully.  Again, I thank all of you for the input and advice! 

 

[Guest]

Mark,

Please accept my apologies, nowhere did I suggest that you used Amex to back out of your payment and agreement with the shop.  As I said the agreement is between the two of you.

My post was quoting a response to "DAVIDWH" who seems to suggest this method of dispute resolution works well for him.  My feelings on that are clear.

Again sorry if I offended you, it was never my intention.

Clarence

[rblauson]

Clarence,

No problem and thanks for the clarification. I do agree that a deal is a deal and if you make it, you should stick to it. My only problem with the shop now is the owner is ignoring my request for a receipt stating that I paid him in full. Without that, he can reneg and change his mind at any time and simply claim I didn't pay him in full for whatever amount he wants. In other words no where did he put in writing about our agreement. What if he decides 6 months from now to put a lien on my plane? This is a conundrum part 2 lol.

Mark

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, rblauson said:

Clarence,

No problem and thanks for the clarification. I do agree that a deal is a deal and if you make it, you should stick to it. My only problem with the shop now is the owner is ignoring my request for a receipt stating that I paid him in full. Without that, he can reneg and change his mind at any time and simply claim I didn't pay him in full for whatever amount he wants. In other words no where did he put in writing about our agreement. What if he decides 6 months from now to put a lien on my plane? This is a conundrum part 2 lol.

Mark

 

Mark,

I agree the situation may still not be resolved if you don't have something in writing from him.

Clarence

[rblauson]

Good news - he supplied an email this morning that said I was paid in full. I assume an email is sufficient ?

 

[OR75]

k$9 at face value seems excessive for a annual.

my thinking for the annual inspection ( inspection only , no repairs) would be about 20 to 25 hours at shop rate + oil change. I know that's how much time it takes to open and close all the panels for the inspection. So maybe $2500 is a good ballpark figure. 

Beyond that is time for repairs and parts. 

Parts ... Should be fairly easy to cost. Shops have to charge close to MSRP.  Even if those are deemed overpriced but this aviation. 

Labor .... That's more tricky. It does take time to make repairs and change parts. But the customer should not pay for the shop to learn how to make a repair in my opinion or to wait for a part.

That's why a detailed invoice is needed

[wishboneash]

38 minutes ago, rblauson said:

Good news - he supplied an email this morning that said I was paid in full. I assume an email is sufficient ?

 

Provided it is from his company, not a personal email. I don't get it why he can't send an official receipt, costs him an envelope and postage. I would insist on it. Sounds a bit fishy to me.

[DonMuncy]

2 hours ago, rblauson said:

Good news - he supplied an email this morning that said I was paid in full. I assume an email is sufficient ?

 

I would not worry at all if you have the email. Make a copy and/or archive it. The only way you could lose is if he decides to renege on the deal (unlikely), claims he didn't send the email (very unlikely), could convince someone important (judge, etc.) he didn't send it. (Very highly unlikely).