C/E Model Wanted - 1965 or newer

[glafaille]

Marauder:

 

The aircraft is at 9G0, 9 Golf Zero.  M20C in great shape but with a run out engine, stll passes compression checks though.  Is there anyone in the area that can do a GOOD prebuy "inspection" or maybe just a hands on look see?  Nearest MSC is in Dunkirk but I'm not certain they are "Old Mooney" savy.  I need to give them a call.  

I'm not sure when I can get to the area myself.  It would be helpful if a knowledgeable person took a look for me.

Thanks.

 

Gene

[Marauder]

Marauder:

 

The aircraft is at 9G0, 9 Golf Zero.  M20C in great shape but with a run out engine, stll passes compression checks though.  Is there anyone in the area that can do a GOOD prebuy "inspection" or maybe just a hands on look see?  Nearest MSC is in Dunkirk but I'm not certain they are "Old Mooney" savy.  I need to give them a call.  

I'm not sure when I can get to the area myself.  It would be helpful if a knowledgeable person took a look for me.

Thanks.

 

Gene

9G0 is my old stomping ground. I was based there for a bit. Send me a PM with the owner's name. I will see who I know up there now to look at it.

If Dunkirk is an MSC, that must have been within the past 10 years. They were not a MSC while I lived there.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[glafaille]

I could be mistaken on Dunkirk, I think I saw it on the Mooney Service Center list.  

I will send you a PM with the info.

[atn_pilot]

I'm thinking of selling my C, although it certainly won't do 150 knots. It'll easily do 140 at 10k, and occasionally peak a knot or two above that, but that's about it.

1. No corrosion - check
2. Low time engine & prop - check
3. Good autopilot with alt hold - check
4. Bladder tanks - check
5. Basic but recent avionics - check (unless you consider a 430 fancy)
6. Standard 6-pack - check
7. Excellent maintenance history - check (maintained by MSCs by prior owner, and by reputable FBO since I bought it)
8. Serviceable paint & interior - check (paint is older, but looks great)
9. Speed mods - NOPE
10. Engine monitor - NOPE, but does have a Shadin fuel totalizer
11. 1965 or newer - check (1968)
12. Less than $55k - check (I'll sell it for $50k, in fact)

It does have a few years of missing logbooks back in the 80s. Not sure if that's a problem for you. With a few decades of annuals since then, didn't bother me. There was a prop strike years ago, but engine overhaul and prop replaced after that. I just put a brand new alternator in it. Not a single squawk to be found. My mechanic has a copy of the keys, and if there's so much as a loose sun visor, I tell them to take the plane and fix it.

I've only had it for about a year, and I love the plane, but as a former airline guy, I miss my twin engines, weather radar, and cruising in the flight levels. I'm planning to trade in the super-efficiency of the Mooney for the super-comfort of a Cessna 421. Just need to sell the Mooney first.

I've attached some pics.

[glafaille]

atn_pilot:

What a great looking plane!  Hard to believe you would think about selling it.  Having spent the last 4 months driving all over hill and dale looking at planes, I wouldn't sell the Mooney until after you buy the replacement.  It seems most planes are located in hard to reach places.  Trust me, you need the Mooney for a bit longer.

Unfortunately, I am very particular about logbooks, no doubt the biggest reason I'm still looking!  As a corporate pilot, and the one responsible for watching over our aircraft's maintenance and paperwork, a complete and well documented maintenance history is at the top of my "must have" list.

[atn_pilot]

No problem. If you know anyone else looking, send them my way.

[eman1200]

I'm looking, I'm just not 50k looking.

[atn_pilot]

With airplanes, you either pay now, or pay more later. Mooney annuals can get awfully expensive if you buy an airplane on the cheap that wasn't well maintained. Just some food for thought.

[steingar]

Personally, I think the OP is a bit unreasonable.  6 months ago when I was looking the plane he wanted didn't exist.  There were ones that fit his description, but not at the price he's quoted.  I am not surprised he hasn't found one.

[glafaille]

You are probably right.  I may never find one.  But is it wise to pay over $55,000 for a 40 year old C or E when Js are available for $70,000 or less?  Resale is a consideration too.

I have seen a couple of planes that would have been acceptable IF they were accurately represented by the seller, or the owners willing to fix the airworthiness squawks.  I'm not willing to risk the expense of travel, aircraft ferry, and pre-buy at the MSC, with obvious to me airworthiness squawks on the aircraft.

It appears that many mooneyspace guys bought their planes without a thorough pre-buy, without complete logs, 30 year old overhauls, and sometimes without much knowledge of Mooneys at all.  Some are new pilots with little knowledge of any aircraft.  Luckily most get away with it and end up with a great aircraft from the guy in the "next hangar over".  For a few the nightmare begins with the purchase.  I commend and admire those that are willing to take the risk.  There was a time that I would have "gone for it" too, however now I am at a point in my life where minimizing risk is a good idea.

Besides I am not in a hurry and I have read that several mooneyspace guys have searched for a year or more before finding  the "right" aircraft.  Easy to see now why it would take that long.

[Mooneymite]

15 hours ago, glafaille said:

 As a corporate pilot, and the one responsible for watching over our aircraft's maintenance and paperwork, a complete and well documented maintenance history is at the top of my "must have" list.

I understand the craving for complete logbooks.  Having said that, I bought a plane with the first logbook missing.  It had 10 years worth of logs, but the original was missing.  What it did have was "paperwork" that covered any significant maintenance in the missing log period:  Reciepts, shop bills, notes, engine log, propeller log, etc.

In the 18 years I've had the plane, it hasn't mattered even a little bit.  I have 35 years of logbooks now, but that first one is still missing.....In the part 91 world who cares?

I have also looked at planes with logbooks that I highly suspected had been "made up"....look for that supporting documentation even if the logs ARE present.  Realize that there is a huge difference between missing recent logs and ancient history.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Bob_Belville]

14 minutes ago, glafaille said:

You are probably right.  I may never find one.  But is it wise to pay over $55,000 for a 40 year old C or E when Js are available for $70,000 or less?  Resale is a consideration too.

 

I doubt that that $70.000 J meets the rest of your list of requirements. Mid time engine? bladders? Avionics? There will be (expensive) reasons that a J is selling for $70,000.

[KSMooniac]

44 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I doubt that that $70.000 J meets the rest of your list of requirements. Mid time engine? bladders? Avionics? There will be (expensive) reasons that a J is selling for $70,000.

This is very true.  A $55k C or E will likely have a lot nicer/newer goodies than a $70k J.  That $55k C also might have $80-100K "invested" in it too.  If you don't think it is worth the price, you might find yourself purchasing a $40k C some day, and pouring another $30k+ into it so that you'll have a $55k C too.   That is just how ownership works.

If you hold out hoping to find that diamond in an estate sale or some other lucky scenario, you might just miss out on years of enjoyment you could have had flying a Mooney instead of endlessly shopping.

[gsxrpilot]

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me $54K was too much for a C and I should buy a J.... I'd have had enough to buy a NICE J.

As it is, I couldn't be happier with my awesome, over priced, over upgraded, missing logs, damage history, but Maxwell approved, C.

And every time I'm solo or even with the wife and the dog, (which is 99% of the time), I'm glad I'm not sacrificing panel goodies for 10 wasted inches in the back seat.

[atn_pilot]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Personally, I think the OP is a bit unreasonable.  6 months ago when I was looking the plane he wanted didn't exist.  There were ones that fit his description, but not at the price he's quoted.  I am not surprised he hasn't found one.

Maybe unreasonable is too harsh. But definitely a bit unrealistic. He'll probably spend years looking for a plane that fits those requirements, and may or may not ever find one.

I've noticed that 90% of airplane buyers fall into one of two categories:

1. Ridiculously anal-retentive - EVERY logbook has to be there; ZERO damage history, no matter how minor; ONLY an MSC will be satisfactory for the pre-buy; and on and on and on

2. Completely careless - usually brand-new people who just haven't done their research and don't know the pitfalls, but these are the people who buy $30k airplanes that usually cost $50k and wonder why they have to spend $30k the next year for maintenance

I think both categories are ridiculous. There's a happy middle-ground. When you're dealing with 30+ year old airplanes, you can expect a missing logbook from the late 70s, and it's not something to worry about. You can expect a gear-up in 1985, and no, it's not a big deal. You can live without an MSC handling the pre-buy, as long as you hire a reputable and well known shop to handle it, and you ask them to be thorough. I know this is blasphemy around here, but MSCs are a complete rip-off, anyway. Moderation in all things. What you want is a well-equipped, well-cared for airplane. It doesn't have to be perfect, and you won't find one that is perfect, at least not in any reasonable amount of time. So chill a bit.

[Mooneymite]

4 minutes ago, atn_pilot said:

..... but MSCs are a complete rip-off, anyway. ....... So chill a bit.

That might be a little harsh.  

If the MSC provides peace of mind that your plane is reliable, it's intangible, but it's worth something.

Perhaps MSC's charge more because owners expect to pay more.

[atn_pilot]

3 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

That might be a little harsh.  

If the MSC provides peace of mind that your plane is reliable, it's intangible, but it's worth something.

Perhaps MSC's charge more because owners expect to pay more.

If you've got a local MSC that's very convenient, then it can make sense. But I just shake my head at people who will fly their airplane a few hundred miles, spend a few nights in a hotel while it's being worked on, and then fly it back a few hundred miles, just for an MSC, spending hundreds if not thousands more in the process. Personally, I find a lot more peace of mind in using my local guy who I know very well, because I know he's completely honest and trustworthy. If there's something that they can't do, he'll tell me right up front and recommend someone to handle it. And if he tells me that something should be done, I feel 100% confident that he's being honest and isn't trying to up-sell me. I would never be able to have that sort of confidence in an MSC out of town where I go once or twice a year and really don't know the people.

[Hank]

For a B-J, maybe a K, I kind of agree with atn. But I was sinking 200 big ones into a personal airliner to fly hard IFR all over the country, then that three-state trip to an MSC for a pre-buy disappears into the noise. it provides peace of mind, and is the airplane equivalent of the home inspection when buying a house.

I lucked into my plane as a total noob, but the FBO owner had a lot on the line selling it to me. It was the plane he had been fixing up for his retirement before finding the proverbial estate sale A36 that was too good to pass up. Guess we were both lucky . . . Then I found MooneySpace a year or so later. Even so, my advice above does not change.

[glafaille]

All valid points gentlemen, thank you.  I am somewhat flexible in most areas and willing to accept some flaws like a missing logbook, as long as there are other ways to verify the aircraft's history.  The fact that I have already tendered an offer at the sellers asking price is proof that acceptable aircraft can be found and at least there is a chance I'll find another.

Remember that I am not asking for Aspen or GPS outfitted airplanes, furthermore paint and interior are not very important to me.  I can't believe it's unreasonable to expect to find a 40 year old Mooney with basic IFR equipment, mid time engine overhauled within recent history, tanks that don't leak, no corrosion and a good maintenance history for under $55,000.  The planes ARE out there but what makes the task difficult is the expense of traveling a great distances to evaluate each prospect, only to be disappointed by flaws that were not previously disclosed.

One interesting phenomenon I have recently encountered, and spent good money to discover, is the seller that REALLY does NOT want to sell his "pride and joy".  This fellow is one who has listed his plane for sale NOT because he wants to sell it, but because something or someone is forcing him to APPEAR to be selling it.  This gent usually talks up the airplane like it is in perfect condition, with perfect maintenance, always hangared and nary a scratch or flaw anywhere.  His asking price is usually at the very tip top of the reasonable range.  When you go to see the plane you discover that yes it was geared up after all, and yes the original logbook is missing, and yes there is a bit of corrosion in the tail, and gee I never noticed that wrinkle in the horizontal stab, and gee I thought the GPS was IFR legal, and wow I've never seen that 337 before or better yet what is a 337.  By the time you deduct a bit here and a bit there you are so far away from the asking price it's pointless to make an offer because he just told you he really doesn't want to sell it but his wife decided she didn't like little planes after all and wants to buy an RV instead.  Smaller airports are filled with these planes rotting in the sun, all because the guy didn't really want to sell it all those years ago.  It's his plane and his business but it affects me if I can't weed him out before spending money to visit him and his plane.

I am getting better at weeding these sellers out, but it is certainly a learning process for me.  I'm beginning to appreciate the value of an airplane broker.  Usually the plane is in his control, ready to sell, and frequently the broker is located in a easy to travel to location.  I might save a lot of time and money shopping only with reputable brokers with airplanes in the hangar.

[Mooneymite]

Yep.

 

[atn_pilot]

But I was sinking 200 big ones into a personal airliner to fly hard IFR all over the country, then that three-state trip to an MSC for a pre-buy disappears into the noise. it provides peace of mind, and is the airplane equivalent of the home inspection when buying a house.

While I certainly agree that a thorough pre-buy is imperative, just like a house inspection, I just don't agree that there is value in a long trip to an MSC for it. I'm currently looking for a 421, which truly is a persona airliner. But I don't care if the pre-buy is done by a high dollar specialist halfway across the country. The chance of them uncovering something that any other reputable and well respected service provider wouldn't have turned up is virtually nil, so I don't believe there is value. But like I said, I know that anathema to many people around here.

[Hank]

It all depends on how comfortable you are dropping the purchase price without inspection by someone who knows the particular foibles of the thing you are buying, be it airplane, car, artwork, coins . . . .

[glafaille]

I am lucky to have found mooneyspace and the helpful community of Mooney owners that frequent the website.  Several members have offered to assist in my search by offering to look at prospective planes located near their home or offered to contact local maintenance folks in the area for intel on the plane.  I feel pretty certain that I could probably buy an airplane sight unseen from a reputable broker, with the help of knowledgeable mooneyspace friends, and reputable maintenance providers.  But it kind of runs against my grain to buy something this expensive without having laid a hand on it.  Still trying to get my mind around that possibility!

I appreciate all the advice and help everyone has offered.  This much effort just HAS to result in something positive.

[gsxrpilot]

Regarding a pre-buy inspection at an MSC, I think it's different for first time airplane buyers.  As a first time buyer myself, I'd never used an A&P before and didn't know any. Therefore I was very hesitant to let the "local guy" do the work and was much more comfortable having a true Mooney expert give me the advice.

One other note... You say you're looking for a well maintained plane but one without the upgrades in panel, paint, interior, etc.  I'm wondering if that's the whole problem. It's probably fairly common for someone who diligently maintains and regularly flies their Mooney, to also keep spending money on it in Aspen's, WAAS GPS, paint, interior, etc.  And the owners who don't spend money on any upgrades, also don't fly as much and don't spend money or care about the upkeep either.

Just a thought...

[Mooneymite]

30 minutes ago, atn_pilot said:

I'm currently looking for a 421.....

Yikes!  Don't those have the dreaded "geared engines"?  

You are a brave man.