VW Dilemma

[Hank]

With the current load of VW diesels, there is more to it than the position and force of your right foot:

"The company has acknowledged that managers, struggling to meet U.S. sales targets, masked the emissions of new-car engines to sell so-called clean diesel technology to skeptical American consumers. The car maker said as many as 11 million vehicles carried a "defeat device," software that reduces tailpipe emissions only when the car is being tested, not on the road."

So as I said above, they were discovered to be cheating when a portable emissions test unit was put in the trunk while the car was driven down the road, instead of being stationary in a test cell. Emissions were clean when the vehicles were not moving; this is a poor use of a car, to sit in with a running engine and go nowhere.

And this:

"Our company was dishonest with the EPA, and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you," Michael Horn, head of Volkswagen of America, told dealers last month in New York City. "We've totally screwed up."

[MyNameIsNobody]

No doubt.  You already stated and the above information is what it is.  Giving the US Government Billions will make it all better now won't it.  VW makes a great car.  Consumers will vote for them at the dealerships.  They will pay and play.  Should the CEO be drawn and quartered on the public square with Pay per view going to Big G too?  What do you want Hank?  Your outrage is duly noted.  I still think the Diesel's (2.0 liter) are underwhelming to drive and the savings are not there with dthe price premium for the Tech.  I voted away from Tiguan at last purchase (for wife) due to VW not bringing "good stuff" Scirocco and GDL to U.S.  Sadly U.S. vehicles are not even in the game (SUV) and Sport Coupe for my taste/price-point.  I will eat my own turd before I ever buy/drive a GM (Government Motors) product.  But that is just me.

[Mooneymite]

Here's an example of where "Being Green" seems to be 90% emotion, 10% reality.  (Hank excepted )

Some of the rich folk I carry on the jet I fly at work, will pull up to the jet in a Prius.  Nothing wrong with a Prius and I guess that every little bit helps, but can you imagine how many miles/years you'd have to drive that Prius to counter the carbon-cost of that jet trip with one person aboard?

Our company also has a "Green Program" where a customer can select a reduced emission flight profile.  In return, the company sends him a note telling him how much fuel (Carbon) he saved.  The "Green profile" is basically slowing the jet .10 Mach from our normal high speed cruise.

So far, I have yet to fly a "green flight", but saving (maybe as little as) 20 gallons on a flight where we burn 550 gallons to carry one person on a typical short flight profile doesn't seem "Green" in reality.  However, this is probably wonderfully PC cocktail party talk for our green customers.

The company loves these green flights because it charges the customer more "occupied hours" based on the slower cruise speed and gets credit for being green.

[MyNameIsNobody]

All true EXCEPT there is a LOT wrong with a Prius...

[Shadrach]

Thanks for the response.  It's good to hear the cars can meet the regs on the road.   Everyone keeps saying VW was cheating and they will owe some huge fine, but little details that matter are being left out of the news.  Does the government set the standards and the conditions during which they apply?  Would the car meet the standards if driven on the road under those conditions?   If so, VW met the standards.   --Now, will VW pay a fine?  I'm sure the government will find a way to extort money from them.  And if people are angry, blame the government for doing a poor job of setting standards and test conditions.

VW did cheat and in a very diabolical way. Knowing that under the emissions regs they'd never meet the efficiency and performace specs that made the car a great seller, they programmed the car to recognize the typical test regimen. It could sense when it was plugged into an OBDIII device, it could sence when the front wheels were moving and the rears were stationary, it could even sense when the throttle was being applied for prolonged periods without steering inputs. The car used this information to determine when it was under scrutiny; it would then reactivate emissions devices that were previously bypassed and would also likely operate under remapped fuel and timing curves. 

The regs very well may be unfair, possibly unreasonable. However, VW was clearly intending to defraud.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Shadrach

[Mooneymite]

All true EXCEPT there is a LOT wrong with a Prius...

Yeah, but.....

There's nothing wrong with jets!! 

Or Mooneys

[aviatoreb]

Forget Jet - I want this:

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/diamond-launches-hybrid-electric-tiltrotor

 

Too cool - small fuel efficient diesel motors driving Siemmans electric motors that are powerful enough to hover for take off and landing based on reserved stored power supplemented by the diesels.  Then short stubby wings for high speed low drag cruise - normally short stubby wings make for horrible landing characteristics but who cares because its vtol.  Oh - and its autoland.
 

Call me George - George Jetson.  (Say that like Bond - George Bond).

[Marauder]

Makes me wonder if consumers were given the choice (say with a switch) between performance mode and green mode, which they would choose most of the time. 

You can do that in my wife's Prius. You go from 40 mpg to 44 mpg to looking for a plug since the all electric mode goes only a quarter mile.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

Makes me wonder if consumers were given the choice (say with a switch) between performance mode and green mode, which they would choose most of the time. 

My car (a Honda Accord V6) has this choice.  It is an ECO button. I always have it in performance mode.

[chrisk]

VW did cheat and in a very diabolical way. Knowing that under the emissions regs they'd never meet the efficiency and performace specs that made the car a great seller, they programmed the car to recognize the typical test regimen. It could sense when it was plugged into an OBDIII device, it could spence when the front wheels were moving and the rears were stationary, it could even sense when the throttle was being applied for prolonged periods without steering inputs. The car used this information to determine when it was underscrutiny; it would then reactivity emissions devices that were previously bypassed and would also likely operate under remapped fuel and timing curves. 

The regs very well may be unfair,mane possibly unreasonable. However, VW was clearly intending to defraud.

This is what I was getting at with my original question.  If the consumer can't possibly drive it on the street and achieve the lower emissions, they will hammer VW. 

[Guest]

Here's an example of where "Being Green" seems to be 90% emotion, 10% reality.  (Hank excepted )

Some of the rich folk I carry on the jet I fly at work, will pull up to the jet in a Prius.  Nothing wrong with a Prius and I guess that every little bit helps, but can you imagine how many miles/years you'd have to drive that Prius to counter the carbon-cost of that jet trip with one person aboard?

Our company also has a "Green Program" where a customer can select a reduced emission flight profile.  In return, the company sends him a note telling him how much fuel (Carbon) he saved.  The "Green profile" is basically slowing the jet .10 Mach from our normal high speed cruise.

So far, I have yet to fly a "green flight", but saving (maybe as little as) 20 gallons on a flight where we burn 550 gallons to carry one person on a typical short flight profile doesn't seem "Green" in reality.  However, this is probably wonderfully PC cocktail party talk for our green customers.

The company loves these green flights because it charges the customer more "occupied hours" based on the slower cruise speed and gets credit for being green.

I see some jets on the ramp across from my shop with the APU running for more than an hour waiting on the executives to show up, not very green at all.

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

I see some jets on the ramp across from my shop with the APU running for more than an hour waiting on the executives to show up, not very green at all.

Clarence

Yes, but at least the cabin (and the crew) is cool.  The APU we have burns about what my Mooney does at takeoff power.  Such a small price to pay for cool. 

[Shadrach]

This is what I was getting at with my original question.  If the consumer can't possibly drive it on the street and achieve the lower emissions, they will hammer VW. 

The consumer can drive it on the street and achieve lower emissions, but it will require a software change in order for that to happen; this will neuter performance and degrade fuel efficiency. The recall campaign alone is going to hammer VW.

[peevee]

Either lower performance or fluid injection

Apparently bosh or whoever supplied the ecm recommended the injection but vw declined because it would have cost 350 or so dollars per vehicle. 

[MB65E]

Maybe they will actually make the cars better than they were. More like it should have been built in the first place. 

-Matt

[Shadrach]

I think most folks think VW is the bar by which all modern affordable sporty family sedans are measured. It is typically a class leader in terms of what consumers want.  Make no mistake, these are fine automobiles.  As stated earlier, the NOx and CO curves invert around peak EGT (stoichiometric). TDIs are 'lean burn" engines as they run lean of stoichiometric (peak). This yields wonderful fuel economy and also reduces CO emissions to near 0. One of the reasons the fix is going to degrade fuel economy and torque is the engines will be retuned to run rich of stoichiometric (peak) to reduce NOx.  

[MyNameIsNobody]

I am flashing back to 1976-80...as the late Yoggi Berra said: "It's deja vu all over again"...