donkaye Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Seems like insurance companies just throw a dart at the board when choosing requirements. I have fairly low time, no Mooney time, 100 complex, some multi, and a ton of ratings. No requirement at all put on me. It's just bizarre. I recently checked out a 767 Captain in his recently acquired Mooney Bravo. While he was a very good student as you would expect, he needed a checkout, as flying the Bravo is much different than flying the 767. I've had some difficult times with students who thought they didn't need a checkout when transitioning from the medium body J to the long body Mooney. So far, all came to my point of view by the time the training was over. Your insurance company did not do you a favor by requiring no transition time, tons of ratings or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 When I bought my first Mooney in 1984, I had two takeoffs and landings in Mooney's. I had a friend drive me to the Boulder CO airport, I gave the broker a check and he gave me the keys, after signing a pile of paperwork. I flew the plane to the home airport 01V. The next day I flew it to Oshkosh at night. This may sound like hearsay here, but I have never found Mooney's hard to fly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I recently checked out a 767 Captain in his recently acquired Mooney Bravo. While he was a very good student as you would expect, he needed a checkout, as flying the Bravo is much different than flying the 767. I've had some difficult times with students who thought they didn't need a checkout when transitioning from the medium body J to the long body Mooney. So far, all came to my point of view by the time the training was over. Your insurance company did not do you a favor by requiring no transition time, tons of ratings or not. You'll be surprised to find that the Mooney isn't a fire breathing dragon waiting to bite you at every turn. It's no different than a Bonanza or arrow. I flew once with a safety pilot and some lessons with a local Mooney cfi with a couple thousand hours in type who seemed to be wondering why he was there after the first lesson. It got fairly annoying hearing how the type was going to eat my lunch. It didn't. It's a certified airplane that is not dissimilar from any other aside from a few quirks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 You'll be surprised to find that the Mooney isn't a fire breathing dragon waiting to bite you at every turn. It's no different than a Bonanza or arrow. I flew once with a safety pilot and some lessons with a local Mooney cfi with a couple thousand hours in type who seemed to be wondering why he was there after the first lesson. It got fairly annoying hearing how the type was going to eat my lunch. It didn't. It's a certified airplane that is not dissimilar from any other aside from a few quirks. Posts like the above are detrimental to those wondering if they should get training from a Mooney specific instructor. I bet I could fly with this guy and tear his flying apart in 1 or 2 times around the pattern. He is your Macho, anti-authority know it all. If he has CFI at the end of his name, he should be ashamed of himself. If not, he doesn't know what he is talking about. I've seen them before in all shapes and colors in my 21 years of instructing. Unfortunately I've had to fire a couple of those types of students. There darn well is a difference between the Bonanza and Arrow, oleo struts being one of them. I've been asked by Mooney in the past to go cross country to help convince a buyer who was lent a Mooney by the company, prop struck it, and then wanted to back out of his deal because of the landing characteristics of the Mooney, that he could land it properly. It turns out he was one of the best pilots I have ever flown with, but he froze on bounced landing because he didn't know what to do. After spending a day and a half with him, he went ahead with the purchase. So, Mr. non CFI don't tell me there's no difference in checking out in a Mooney vs other airplanes. Go get your CFI and train 450 students and then get back to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 The higher accident rate,(gear up landings, prop strikes etc) have given Mooneys the reputation they have. Just look at how rare NDH airframe are. The quality of the piloting seems to be a big factor in the accident rate. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg252AY Posted August 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 The higher accident rate,(gear up landings, prop strikes etc) have given Mooneys the reputation they have. Just look at how rare NDH airframe are. The quality of the piloting seems to be a big factor in the accident rate. Clarence AOPA safety foundation has the mooney accident rate lower than comparable high performance singles. My insurance company only required me to have 5 hours in make and model, with zero instruction. The reason I bring this up is that insurance companies deal with facts not opinions on accident rates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinerunner Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 My introduction to the Mooney was kind of extreme. I had not flown for decades but when I did start at it hard and got my commercial (no instrument though). Also was raised on a seaplane base so got that rating as well. Soloed conventional geared J-3 cub. Complex time about 10 hours in a 180-HP Comanche. The seller let me get my biannual flight review in the M20E I was considering with his National Guard pilot buddy who had gotten his complex time in a Mooney so he was competent in them but not famously so. As an instructor he could take you to your ATR if you wanted and had lots of time flying military heavys. I found my Mooney to be a nice flying airplane that I kind of fell in love with right from the get go. I knew speed control in landing would be important, paid more attention to it, and found it wasn't as bad as advertised. I did scare myself on one occasion by not landing on the most full tank. The next morning was when I realized it and found out I had been pretty close to empty on that tank and had left the other one full. That runway had a sharp drop-off at the end of the runway so I had set myself up for more than damage to my bank account. A bit of imagining how it would be to actually run out while on final gave me that sudden "stone cold sober" feeling. I had been at the end of a very long cross country, with a couple delays, and somewhat dehydrated on one of the hottest days of the summer. My predominantly Cessna experience had taught me to "just leave fuel on both" and tired and beat I had reverted. That scared me even though, through dumb luck, no incident had come out of it and I didn't even know until the next day. I don't think a Mooney specific instructor would have made much difference but you want one that is familiar for sure. Then you have to hammer down the new habits and use the checklist appropriately. I don't know when the training period ends and you don't need to be concerned about possible bad habits; I haven't got there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I received training from a Mooney specific CFII. When he was working, now retired, he was a Mooney Safety Foundation instructor and only taught Mooney. My aircraft was maintained by Dugosh since the day she was born. There's tremendous value to specialized Mooney maintenance. Any mechanic can open up panels and "inspect." Only a Mooney professional will know what they're looking at. Our favorite past time can kill us if we let our proficiency slip. We have plenty of examples of that unfortunately. I'm a firm believer in "...some things are best left to professionals..." I strongly recommend the Mooney Safety Foundation seminars on an ongoing basis. They provide invaluable proficiency training and education. I call it CME (Continued Mooney Education!) http://www.mapasafety.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Posts like the above are detrimental to those wondering if they should get training from a Mooney specific instructor. I bet I could fly with this guy and tear his flying apart in 1 or 2 times around the pattern. He is your Macho, anti-authority know it all. If he has CFI at the end of his name, he should be ashamed of himself. If not, he doesn't know what he is talking about. I've seen them before in all shapes and colors in my 21 years of instructing. Unfortunately I've had to fire a couple of those types of students. There darn well is a difference between the Bonanza and Arrow, oleo struts being one of them. I've been asked by Mooney in the past to go cross country to help convince a buyer who was lent a Mooney by the company, prop struck it, and then wanted to back out of his deal because of the landing characteristics of the Mooney, that he could land it properly. It turns out he was one of the best pilots I have ever flown with, but he froze on bounced landing because he didn't know what to do. After spending a day and a half with him, he went ahead with the purchase. So, Mr. non CFI don't tell me there's no difference in checking out in a Mooney vs other airplanes. Go get your CFI and train 450 students and then get back to me. oh no, oleo struts! The plane lands a little firm, big deal. A good landing in a bonanza is a good landing in an arrow, is a good landing in a 310 is a good landing in a cirrus. You guessed it, still good in a mooney. Telling yourself the mooney is anything different is kidding yourself. I've trained plenty of students, thanks. And what I've seen is you can't make assumptions based on hours. Some students get better training and some get worse, pure hours doesn't tell you the whole story. I still got transition training, after the first lesson he said I was fine soloing the plane, so I did and continued to work on other things not related to type just to be sure, and this guy I assure you has trained more folks than you and me combined. SO, a guy doesn't know how to go around? A BASIC PPL MANEUVER?! And it's the airframes fault? Righto boss. Anybody that has researched the matter at all knows to expect a strong pitch up movement on go around in the type, but besides that it's a non event if flown just as you would in just about any other airplane out there. Too many internet know-it-alls out there convinced me the airplane was a lot of things it isn't to my own detriment. We all know model specific transition training is the best practice, but I don't think walking around telling ourselves we're flying some mythical beast that only a select few can handle is doing anyone a service either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinerunner Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Greg That answers the big question I had. More experience in a variety of types will help make the transition easier, of course. A pilot with just 150 hours in only Cessna Skyhawks would be well advised to get some Mooney specific transition training and go to some expense to get it, too, if need be. Thousands of hours but only in something very different could be tricky. It was up to you to make the judgment and it looks like it worked out fine. Note added: This was supposed to be quoting Greg's response explaining that he had a lot of experience in a wide variety of small aircraft, other than Mooneys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I have not, nor do I ever plan to fly K's, Rockets, Missile's or Long Body Mooney's. That said, I just don't feel that a Vintage Mooney is much different to fly than a Piper Cherokee or Arrow. That is what I flew in before transitioning into the Mooney. Learned how to swing Johnson bar in a couple of landings. Learned about benefits of full flaps on landings on MooneySpace...after owning for years and hundreds of landings. It is not a taildragger. It is not a Warbird. It is NOT high performance. Speed control is important to land well. Bounces are power on, trim it and go around. Stop making this a big fearfest mystery. Come off of the "high horse". If Mooney specific trainers want to advertise, let them advertise. Benefit, YES! Mandatory? Hell NO! The maintenance issue and this have been beaten up in other threads. To each their own. There is NOT one way to skin a Mooney cat. One size does NOT fit all. There, enough of "another perspective" to the "mandatory call for Mooney savvy trainers on transition and Mooney specific shops for service... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I think Cirrus requires specific CFIs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I have not, nor do I ever plan to fly K's, Rockets, Missile's or Long Body Mooney's. That said, I just don't feel that a Vintage Mooney is much different to fly than a Piper Cherokee or Arrow. That is what I flew in before transitioning into the Mooney. Learned how to swing Johnson bar in a couple of landings. Learned about benefits of full flaps on landings on MooneySpace...after owning for years and hundreds of landings. It is not a taildragger. It is not a Warbird. It is NOT high performance. Speed control is important to land well. Bounces are power on, trim it and go around. Stop making this a big fearfest mystery. Come off of the "high horse". If Mooney specific trainers want to advertise, let them advertise. Benefit, YES! Mandatory? Hell NO! The maintenance issue and this have been beaten up in other threads. To each their own. There is NOT one way to skin a Mooney cat. One size does NOT fit all. There, enough of "another perspective" to the "mandatory call for Mooney savvy trainers on transition and Mooney specific shops for service... Hopefully, the original poster will see that there are some, how shall I say, less than the brightest light in the room people to put it nicely in the Mooney family, as once again this poster demonstrates. Regarding advertising, I never have, never will advertise. I teach because I want to, absolutely don't need the money one bit, enjoy being of service to those smart enough to use me to improve their piloting skills, and it should be obvious from my posting on this thread am not making any friends with the Macho, Anti-Authority types. However, based on what I am saying, I hope the others will choose a transition and recurrent training path that will lead to their becoming better pilots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 We all know model specific transition training is the best practice, but I don't think walking around telling ourselves we're flying some mythical beast that only a select few can handle is doing anyone a service either. We agree on the first part, never implied the second, just that Mooney specific transition training is the wise path to take when buying a Mooney. Maybe there is someone out there who has taught more in Mooneys than I have, but I have't met them yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I can't believe all the name calling in this thread from a bunch of like minded pilots! At the end of the day it's the regulator and your insurance company who decide on the training requirements. No one is using a gun to force anyone to take training from anyone, nor to take their plane to only a factory authorized shop. Get over it and move on. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I can't believe all the name calling in this thread from a bunch of like minded pilots! At the end of the day it's the regulator and your insurance company who decide on the training requirements. No one is using a gun to force anyone to take training from anyone, nor to take their plane to only a factory authorized shop. Get over it and move on. Clarence "people with a hazardous macho attitude will feel a need to continually prove that they are better pilots than others" - Hazardous attitudes which one do you have. For me the bigger challenge in moving types today is glass panel/technology more so than anything else. You can spend a lifetime learning the nuances of some of these systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 If this thread keeps going on much longer, the fat women will return... And all will be singing... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Hopefully, the original poster will see that there are some, how shall I say, less than the brightest light in the room people to put it nicely in the Mooney family, as once again this poster demonstrates. Regarding advertising, I never have, never will advertise. I teach because I want to, absolutely don't need the money one bit, enjoy being of service to those smart enough to use me to improve their piloting skills, and it should be obvious from my posting on this thread am not making any friends with the Macho, Anti-Authority types. However, based on what I am saying, I hope the others will choose a transition and recurrent training path that will lead to their becoming better pilots. Wow, must of struck a nerve with ol Don. Having you assess me as a bit dim...cuts like a knife. Or not. Anti authority "type". Never felt that way, but hey I will join that club. Thank you for the complement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Question authority. A great way to live life. Or be a sheeple. What me worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Posts like the above are detrimental to those wondering if they should get training from a Mooney specific instructor. I bet I could fly with this guy and tear his flying apart in 1 or 2 times around the pattern. He is your Macho, anti-authority know it all. If he has CFI at the end of his name, he should be ashamed of himself. If not, he doesn't know what he is talking about. I've seen them before in all shapes and colors in my 21 years of instructing. Unfortunately I've had to fire a couple of those types of students. There darn well is a difference between the Bonanza and Arrow, oleo struts being one of them. I've been asked by Mooney in the past to go cross country to help convince a buyer who was lent a Mooney by the company, prop struck it, and then wanted to back out of his deal because of the landing characteristics of the Mooney, that he could land it properly. It turns out he was one of the best pilots I have ever flown with, but he froze on bounced landing because he didn't know what to do. After spending a day and a half with him, he went ahead with the purchase. So, Mr. non CFI don't tell me there's no difference in checking out in a Mooney vs other airplanes. Go get your CFI and train 450 students and then get back to me. This website is about opinions. PeeVee gave his opinion. I gave my opinion. For that he and I were personaly attacked. I have been banned from the site for less. What is the difference? No question that Don is experienced, passionate landlord/Mooney CFI. Good for him. I submit that his characterizations of Mooney owners that are also expeienced passionate Mooney owner/pilots as he did in the posts says more about him, his demeanor, his acceptance of others. -Now if you want to specifically have a debate on what I stated that you disagree with. If you want to provide value as a purported teacher...then I am willing to engage. If you want to call me dim for my input, fine. The only time I had an incident in my aircraft I was "under instruction" The instructor called the maneuver. ALL humans are fallable Don. All Shops, even Mooney type shops make mistakes. Hope you continue to successfully train many more aspiring Mooney pilots...Safely. I will just continue to question authority and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 This website is about opinions. PeeVee gave his opinion. I gave my opinion. For that he and I were personaly attacked. I have been banned from the site for less. What is the difference? No question that Don is experienced, passionate landlord/Mooney CFI. Good for him. I submit that his characterizations of Mooney owners that are also expeienced passionate Mooney owner/pilots as he did in the posts says more about him, his demeanor, his acceptance of others. -Now if you want to specifically have a debate on what I stated that you disagree with. If you want to provide value as a purported teacher...then I am willing to engage. If you want to call me dim for my input, fine. The only time I had an incident in my aircraft I was "under instruction" The instructor called the maneuver. ALL humans are fallable Don. All Shops, even Mooney type shops make mistakes. Hope you continue to successfully train many more aspiring Mooney pilots...Safely. I will just continue to question authority and learn. Purported teacher..... I am certainly willing to be banned from this site for my point of view, which is to contribute to Mooney and aviation safety. I am very experience in recognizing the five hazardous attitudes, as I review them in detail before I send a pilot up for their instrument rating practical test, and have personally seen the results of those being violated--two dead former students, one with an innocent passenger on board. So I will continue to express my point of view as clearly as I can. If you do choose to question authority, I suggest you do it in private where you can only hurt yourself and not on a forum where your ill conceived input could lead someone, especially a newbie with little Mooney experience and truly asking for advice, to go down a path they might soon regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peevee Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 The irony being the only person displaying any of the 5 hazardous attitudes around here is the first to accuse others of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Purported teacher..... I am certainly willing to be banned from this site for my point of view, which is to contribute to Mooney and aviation safety. I am very experience in recognizing the five hazardous attitudes, as I review them in detail before I send a pilot up for their instrument rating practical test, and have personally seen the results of those being violated--two dead former students, one with an innocent passenger on board. So I will continue to express my point of view as clearly as I can. If you do choose to question authority, I suggest you do it in private where you can only hurt yourself and not on a forum where your ill conceived input could lead someone, especially a newbie with little Mooney experience and truly asking for advice, to go down a path they might soon regret. How would you describe your "teaching style" Don? Collaborative, Authoritiative? Both work. I will also continue to communicate my point of view. Adults can review and make decisions on their own...such as who do I wish to select as my instructor or maintenance person. I would submit that knowing both is a plus. Thank you for letting me better know you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 How would you describe your "teaching style" Don? Collaborative, Authoritiative? Both work. I will also continue to communicate my point of view. Adults can review and make decisions on their own...such as who do I wish to select as my instructor or maintenance person. I would submit that knowing both is a plus. Thank you for letting me better know you... Students come to me to learn the best way to fly their airplane. Over the past 23 years, I've had a chance to try out many different ways to do that. So it's been an iterative process. The more questions a student has the better. They are involved the learning process. From that perspective I suppose you could say there is collaboration. But most students don't come to me to try to talk me into why their way of flying their airplane is the best way to fly their airplane. I've have had a couple of those (3 or 4 out of all the people I've worked with), and we part ways very quickly. Instructors are in a position of authority because of the experience they hopefully have to more quickly impart their knowledge to a student in the quickest least expensive manner possible. I will demo a lot early on to give a student confidence in their decision to have me teach them and to show them how the Mooney should be flown---especially landing them. Nearly always that encourages them and they improve more quickly. So from that perspective flight instructing is Authoritative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Has anyone ever noticed that, if you google "anti-authority hazardous attitude", all the links refer to aviation? I think the FAA made it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.