Midwest Mooney

[Don Scorese]

The Midwest Mooney website say they are out of business as of May 1, 2015. Does anyone know if there are any other companies that can do the screaming eagle STC?

I have been wanting an Ovation 1, but after the information from this website I have also added the Eagle to the list. There is an Eagle that looks interesting and I believe the 244hsp would meet my needs, but I would like the option to increase the hsp if I find it less than expected. If that option no longer exist than I will have to do some due dilligence to be sure before committing to the Eagle.

Thanks,

Zeke

[Cruiser]

Mooney International bought the STC. It should be available soon.

 

If you search the web there are a couple of evaluations for the Eagle when it came out in 1999. With the two blade prop it was as fast/faster than the Ovation but takeoff/climb suffered.

 

The STC will fix the shortcomings but not increase the top end speed.

[carusoam]

Standing Os are way cool!

I may have said this before...

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15118-ovation-2-3-conversion/?hl=%2Bmidwest+%2Bmooney#entry207626

Possibly more than once...

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/15086-m20s-horsepower-increase-stc/?hl=midwest#entry206987

It may be really cool to improve the aerodynamics and lower the weight of the vehicle. Somebody did that already...

Bob Minnis found a way to add more power and shorten T/O distance with no increase in weight or drag.

Spreading the word...

[Don Scorese]

Thanks for the info. I had thought that if the STC was done and the Eagle had 310hsp it would be very similiar in climb and speed? Cruiser, you seem to imply the top end speed will not change.

[carusoam]

Aerodynamics has a tendency to limit the top speed...

With the TopProp and 310 hp, it is possible to run flat out faster using FT and 2700 rpm.

You will experience some larger fuel flows and louder engine sounds to go with that.

Compare the T/O distance of the O1...1,200' improved to 800' (rough numbers from an old memory)

The 30% difference is important when operating out of a short strip.

Unfortunately, there isn't a 30% improvement in cruise speed. The laws of physics, just won't allow that...

Also check the UL on the individual planes you are considering. The Eagle starts out lighter than the O in full MSE trim.

Best regards,

-a-

[Cruiser]

Performance wise they will be the same airplane. The air frames are the same, the only (performance) difference was the HP derating. You get that back plus more. 

Do you want to climb 1,000 fpm to FL10 ? 

The wings are the same, you can get 108 gallons in them if you try.

Gross wt. will go up with the STC, but lighter is faster. Like I said above, I believe the Eagle was actually faster than the Ovation. If you STC it you add weight and that will offset the added HP in terms of cruise speed. Basically you loose top end for better climb and T/O performance.

 

I believe the only reason Mooney made it and Eagle was the FAA requires a new model designation whenever the engine is changed. Otherwise, it is an Ovation. 

[rainman]

Zeke, I looked at a 1995 Ovation 1 that already had the STC to 310 hp a couple of weeks ago at All American near San Antonio. Very nice, I just couldn't get enough money out of my 1979 231 to make the numbers work but man what a speedster! Still dreaming. Ray

[DAVIDWH]

I know the 95 Ovation you looked at (808WM) as I own the sister ship 606WM.

 

Western Michigan purchased two 95 Ovations, hence the WM suffix.

 

Mine does not have the STC.  I looked into it when Western Skyways zeroed the engine but operating out of a sea level airport, not too much need.

 

After I became aware cruise speed would not improve, I squelched the urge.

 

Best,

 

Dave

[Don Scorese]

Thanks for the clarification on performance. That makes sence with the top end speed not increasing proportionally to take off / climb performance. I am not concerned with an extra 10 knots on the top end, would like the long body and better climb performance than the J model I fly now. Of course I do not need it, but like all pilots always want a little more. I used to fly a SR22 and fully loaded on a hot summer day i never gave the trees at the end of the runway a 2nd thought. But who would want a cirrus when you could have a Mooney

I saw 808WM, and it does look real nice. Thanks for the in person feedback. We are exploring either putting some upgrade money into the J, or selling the J and for not too much more than our upgrade budget plus the J sales proceeds upgrading to a long body. The variables are at times overwhelming.....how much is our J worth, how much negotiating room is in an asking price, etc..... I was with a guy over the weekend who has a nice Bravo that he picked up for $100,000, sure it has a high time engine, but very nice. How do you find these deals?

Anyway, thanks again. As usual this website has been an invaluable source of information.

[DAVIDWH]

Be a bit careful with the budget when you do the overhaul. The engine overhaul quote is not the whole chicken in the basket.

 

Lordes mounts, of course you would need new motor mounts for that new engine. Prop and governor overhaul, can't be without that.

 

Naturally you will need  new hose and wiring kits. goodness, can't put those old ones back in.

 

Then that old corroded rusty muffler needs to be sent off for a rebuild. No need to put that new engine beside the old muffler, could be dangerous.

 

Misc category, too long to discuss here.

 

Then labor from the trusty A&P.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

Just a heads up if you haven't gone through it before.

 

Best,

 

Dave

[Cruiser]

Some things to think about that have not been mentioned here. 

 

1. The M20J is more efficient that the M20R.

Js will cruise at 150+kts and the Rs will cruise at 170+kts but you are feeding two extra mouths to get that extra 20kts. The result is a drop in MPG to about 13 vs the 15 - 17 MPG in the J.

 

You will never see <10 gph fuel flow in a R (except on the ground). More like 27 gph on takeoff, 25 gph in cruise climb and high 12s to 15 gph in cruise depending on how you like to run the engine.

 

For example:

FUEL LIMITATIONS 

//////////////

// WARNING //

/////////////

Turning takeoffs with less than 12 gallons useable fuel in the selected tank are

prohibited.

[flyingcheesehead]

 

Some things to think about that have not been mentioned here. 

 

1. The M20J is more efficient that the M20R.

Js will cruise at 150+kts and the Rs will cruise at 170+kts but you are feeding two extra mouths to get that extra 20kts. The result is a drop in MPG to about 13 vs the 15 - 17 MPG in the J.

 

You will never see <10 gph fuel flow in a R (except on the ground). More like 27 gph on takeoff, 25 gph in cruise climb and high 12s to 15 gph in cruise depending on how you like to run the engine.

 

Some real-world Ovation numbers for you:

 

I see 25 gph at takeoff in the Ovation. In the climb, I'll be down to 18gph at 10,000 feet. Cruise, I get a hair over 12gph (about 12.2) at lower altitudes, 24"/WOT and 2300RPM LOP. Last weekend at 11,000 I was seeing 10.6 gph. My favorite leg I ever flew in the Mooney performance-wise was Santa Fe back to WI in 4:37 at 13,000 feet burning 10.1 gph and truing 172 KTAS.

[carusoam]

Zeke,

Have you been to the AAA website?

http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

They specialize in Mooneys.

- they may have Os for sale...

- they take in other Mooneys on trades...

What engine and prop did your SR22 have? IO550(N) with composite TopProp?

Something to consider,

-a-

[StevenL757]

Zeke,

Have you been to the AAA website?http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

They specialize in Mooneys.

- they may have Os for sale...

- they take in other Mooneys on trades...

"What engine and prop did your SR22 have? IO550(N) with composite TopProp?"

Exactly. :-)

I see a 310hp Ovation in Zeke's future...I think we need to work on him some more here... :-)

[carusoam]

Two step process....

1) Push throttle in....

2) Sign documents with a giant

[Cruiser]

Some real-world Ovation numbers for you:

 

I see 25 gph at takeoff in the Ovation. In the climb, I'll be down to 18gph at 10,000 feet. Cruise, I get a hair over 12gph (about 12.2) at lower altitudes, 24"/WOT and 2300RPM LOP. Last weekend at 11,000 I was seeing 10.6 gph. My favorite leg I ever flew in the Mooney performance-wise was Santa Fe back to WI in 4:37 at 13,000 feet burning 10.1 gph and truing 172 KTAS.

Just to clarify your numbers, you are running 280 HP w/3 blade prop? Right? Not the 310HP STC.

[Txbyker]

I know the 95 Ovation you looked at (808WM) as I own the sister ship 606WM.

Western Michigan purchased two 95 Ovations, hence the WM suffix.

Mine does not have the STC. I looked into it when Western Skyways zeroed the engine but operating out of a sea level airport, not too much need.

After I became aware cruise speed would not improve, I squelched the urge.

Best

I looked at 404WM a few years ago with a similar history. The plane was used as a trainer in Michigan. It is a great airframe and nice interior but runout engine in a hangar it KDWH. Been sitting there for years.

I got the STC end of Jan. Must have been one of the last from Minnis.

Russ

[flyingcheesehead]

Just to clarify your numbers, you are running 280 HP w/3 blade prop? Right? Not the 310HP STC.

 

Affirmative.

[LANCECASPER]

I looked at 404WM a few years ago with a similar history. The plane was used as a trainer in Michigan. It is a great airframe and nice interior but runout engine in a hangar it KDWH. Been sitting there for years.

I got the STC end of Jan. Must have been one of the last from Minnis.

Russ

 

Bob Minnis of Minnis Aviation (678-398-9781 cell 678-361-5696) is still around. He's in Georgia and had already sold Midwest Mooney. He developed and still owns the STC under Minnis Aviation.

[GeorgePerry]

Mooney International bought the STC. It should be available soon.

 

If you search the web there are a couple of evaluations for the Eagle when it came out in 1999. With the two blade prop it was as fast/faster than the Ovation but takeoff/climb suffered.

 

The STC will fix the shortcomings but not increase the top end speed.

 

This is correct.  As an owner of a 2 bladed 244hp "unmodified" Eagle, these remarks are spot on.  Initial take off is similar to a M20J and climb performance is where you'd expect it to be.  Right between a 201 and an Ovation.  Typical take off roll is between 1200 and 2500 feet depending on conditions, weight, and DA.  

 

Initial climb is typically between 1100-1400 FPM at 120 knots, a little better if flown at Vy.

 

Cruise is where the Eagle really comes into it's own.  170 knots 50 deg LOP on 11.5-12.5 Gal/Hr depending on altitude power settings etc.  180 knots+ with 75deg ROP set which yields about 15-15.5 Gal/hr.  My observations match the MAPA log evaluation pretty closely.   

 

Performance numbers aside, what I've found is the Eagle is kinda like a train.  Its not fast out of the hole, but once it ticks past 100 knots on the climb and has built up a head of steam it climbs well and in cruise will stay within a knot or two of an ovation.  Factor in 1000lb useful load, the lower fuel burn, a derated engine that makes TBO b/c it isn't working as hard, and the lower acquisition costs and it's a bargain.  What it's not good at is getting off the ground in under 1000 feet.  - BUT- if your mission doesn't require going in and out of short strips (less than 2500 ft runways) that's not a big deal.

 

As for the Screaming Eagle Mod, it certainly fixes the takeoff roll and initial climb shortcomings and when I purchased my Eagle I was "hot" to get it done.  My broker, Richard Simile of Premier Aircraft cautioned me to be patient.  He recommended I fly the plane for a while before deciding.  I'm glad I took his advice.  After having 100 hours in it, I really like my Eagle in its stock configuration.  It does what a Mooney is supposed to do - cruise fast and not burn much gas. The 310 HP mod is cool but for $25K to have it done, the additional operating costs that come after the fact, and a cruise speed that's essentially the same I don't mind rolling a few hundred feet farther on the runway to get airborne. For me, short field ops are not a necessity so the 310 HP mod isn't worth the cost.   Others mileage might vary.

[Cruiser]

Great write up George.

Sounds like you might want my original two blade prop, hub and spinner as a spare?

[kmyfm20s]

This is correct.  As an owner of a 2 bladed 244hp "unmodified" Eagle, these remarks are spot on.  Initial take off is similar to a M20J and climb performance is where you'd expect it to be.  Right between a 201 and an Ovation.  Typical take off roll is between 1200 and 2500 feet depending on conditions, weight, and DA.  Mooney TO Perf.png

 

Initial climb is typically between 1100-1400 FPM at 120 knots, a little better if flown at Vy.

 

Cruise is where the Eagle really comes into it's own.  170 knots 50 deg LOP on 11.5-12.5 Gal/Hr depending on altitude power settings etc.  180 knots+ with 75deg ROP set which yields about 15-15.5 Gal/hr.  My observations match the MAPA log evaluation pretty closely.   

 

Performance numbers aside, what I've found is the Eagle is kinda like a train.  Its not fast out of the hole, but once it ticks past 100 knots on the climb and has built up a head of steam it climbs well and in cruise will stay within a knot or two of an ovation.  Factor in 1000lb useful load, the lower fuel burn, a derated engine that makes TBO b/c it isn't working as hard, and the lower acquisition costs and it's a bargain.  What it's not good at is getting off the ground in under 1000 feet.  - BUT- if your mission doesn't require going in and out of short strips (less than 2500 ft runways) that's not a big deal.

 

As for the Screaming Eagle Mod, it certainly fixes the takeoff roll and initial climb shortcomings and when I purchased my Eagle I was "hot" to get it done.  My broker, Richard Simile of Premier Aircraft cautioned me to be patient.  He recommended I fly the plane for a while before deciding.  I'm glad I took his advice.  After having 100 hours in it, I really like my Eagle in its stock configuration.  It does what a Mooney is supposed to do - cruise fast and not burn much gas. The 310 HP mod is cool but for $25K to have it done, the additional operating costs that come after the fact, and a cruise speed that's essentially the same I don't mind rolling a few hundred feet farther on the runway to get airborne. For me, short field ops are not a necessity so the 310 HP mod isn't worth the cost.   Others mileage might vary.

I agree with everything mention. My one comment about the 310hp STC is that you can have the same 244hp at higher altitude to get the equivalent speed and effiecncy. The drag from the 3 blade prop is offset by the thin air, I see 252 performance in the mid teens but not after that.

[GeorgePerry]

Great write up George.

Sounds like you might want my original two blade prop, hub and spinner as a spare?

Sure, when can I stop in and pick'em up?