Personal Minimums Decisions..

[Rik]

Everyone has their minimums for their plane but which is most relevant, the cross winds at takeoff or the cross winds that might be at the landing location?

 

Being a student pilot, I have to face that the plane has a cross wind limit and that's that. But if the wind is good on takeoff who's to say that might not change when it comes time to land.  Find an alternative or do you crab, slip or land faster to counter the wind? Or not go at all?

[Joe Zuffoletto]

As a student pilot you should definitely look at the current and forecast winds for your flight and expected time of landing. Don't be afraid to scratch until you start to develop your crosswind technique. Eventually your personal minimums will rise along with your abilities.

 

In my younger days I would launch into almost anything without giving conditions for takeoffs or the landings too much thought. Dealt with some challenging conditions but never bent any metal.

 

I've never diverted in a trike gear plane due to crosswinds on landing, but one time last year I remember racing to Denver Centennial in my Acclaim at full throttle to beat some increasing crosswinds that were passing the aircraft's demonstrated crosswind component. The runway that favored those winds was closed for construction so I had to either beat the winds or possibly land elsewhere that day.

 

My taildragger is another story. I'm VERY aware of the current and forecast winds before I take that plane up!

[eman1200]

it sounds like a discussion you should really have with your CFI.  It's good to get input here, but your instructor will have the best understanding of your skill level.

[DonMuncy]

Wow, a lot of questions.

Taking off is generally easier in a cross wind than landing. But if either of them are questionable, a student pilot would be well advised to not go.

Planes generally have more cross wind capability than the pilot until the pilot is very experienced. Incidentally, the "demonstrated" cross wind limit for the plane you are flying, is not a limit. Most pretty good pilots can easily out-do those numbers. But you only want to figure that out as you gain experience.

When you fly with your instructor, fly as many cross wind landings as possible and note how much wind you are dealing with. If you can consistently land with a cross wind component of x, with the instructor, then decrease that number by 2 knots when you try it alone. If you feel confident with that, try a couple higher, etc.

Get your instructor to show you both "crab and kick" and slip techniques. As you try them, you will learn both and start figuring out which you like best. I learned to slip (rather than crab), but over the years, I have decided I like crabbing better. I do not believe one is better than the other. Just a lot different.

[bonal]

Could be all the above,  I would have to say that I am more focused on my destination than on my origin. Local weather is very easy to determine  weather 300 miles and 2 hours away not so easy to be certain of.  Also you need to consider your return and if conditions are forecast to change. Very important to listen to the AWOS and ATIS and understand what it means and how it applies to your arrival.  Most controlled fields will direct flight opps to the proper runway but on uncontrolled field like Gnoss you have to make your own judgment.

 

When I first started my training we flew for a few weeks with nothing but windy blustery days and it taught me a lot.  When we finally had dead calm it took me a number of landings to get it right cause I did not have a big cross wind to lean on.  point being that all types of weather have an effect on how you operate your aircraft.

[231Pilot]

I learned crosswind techniques in a Cessna 150, and would take off or land in almost any winds (didn't know how much I didn't know). In my Mooneys (a C, a J, and a K) I am more cautious of potential side loads on the gear. Gusting crosswinds are the worst, constant crosswinds are not too hard to compensate for either through slip, or crab and kick.

[Rik]

Could be all the above,  I would have to say that I am more focused on my destination than on my origin. Local weather is very easy to determine  weather 300 miles and 2 hours away not so easy to be certain of.  Also you need to consider your return and if conditions are forecast to change. Very important to listen to the AWOS and ATIS and understand what it means and how it applies to your arrival.  Most controlled fields will direct flight opps to the proper runway but on uncontrolled field like Gnoss you have to make your own judgment.

 

When I first started my training we flew for a few weeks with nothing but windy blustery days and it taught me a lot.  When we finally had dead calm it took me a number of landings to get it right cause I did not have a big cross wind to lean on.  point being that all types of weather have an effect on how you operate your aircraft.

 

 

Yes, Gnoss is very much a cross wind airport which is great. Haven't had any problems learning to land in them.  Learn by fire as I say but last week the wind was at 11 and the RV12 has a 11 limit not a capability so grounded. Larger faster and heavier planes could understandably come and go with ease but not the RV12.   Had the winds been up to 11 an hour after we took off I never thought about what would we do to compensate for that or just divert.

 

Was wondering what people do if ATIS say winds X @ X and the runways are perpendicular to the X? 

 

Does anyone know if Foreflight shows the wind in formation when you are in the air? Never used it other than on the ground.

[RangerJim]

All good advice as you climb the learning curve, gain confidence, and move into heavier equipment.  But in the last analysis takeoffs are always optional and landings are always mandatory.

[Browncbr1]

It may be a good idea to pick alternates that have multiple runway directions if possible. That's one thing I've been thinking about these days.

[BKlott]

Another consideration is the airport that you are operating out of or into. I've flown into Stinson Field in San Antonio with a crosswind gusting up to 27 and similar gusty crosswinds into Cahokia, IL. last summer. These are big open fields with wide runways and it is much easier to handle the winds at that type of airport than at my home field, where there are trees bordering one side of a relatively narrow runway and houses and hangars along the other side of the runway. The wind tends to tumble over the trees and blow gusts between the buildings which makes every landing in windy conditions a very challenging and unpredictable event. So my personal limits on wind are far different and much more conservative at my home base than at a big open airport.

[aaronk25]

I'll land in upto 30kts of crosswind in the mooney IF I have a wide runway 100-150ft wide. But minimums are important as I remember being a fresh pilot and got my first 20ish kt crosswind landing in after a long cross country. Not fun. Should have looked ahead.

[chrisk]

Thinking back to my student pilot days, it was generally the ceiling and visibility that hit the personal minimum limit.  Although there were a number of days with towering clouds where I decided to stay on the ground.

[Rik]

So maybe I should rephrase. 

 

Would one be more adverse to a crosswind on landing or a crosswind on takeoff?

[chrisk]

So maybe I should rephrase.

Would one be more adverse to a crosswind on landing or a crosswind on takeoff?

I'd be more adverse to taking off, as a take off is always optional. Landings are mandatory. You either land in the cross wind or go elsewhere. If you don't like the thoughts of landing with the wind you now have, plus a bit more, then don't go.

 

My point is that as a student, most of your take offs and landings will be at the same airport.   Your take off and landing personal minimums should be the same number.  I would expect this to be set by the landing cross wind.   Also, as others have mentioned, a strong cross wind is not a big deal at a wide open airport.  It's a very different experience if there is terrain, trees, buildings, or gusty conditions.  --It makes an absolute cross wind personal minimum difficult to arrive at.  

 

And finally a different thought on personal minimums.  Once you get more experience, focus on the ones that will kill you.  The amount of fuel reserve, the visibility, and the ceiling.  For me, cross wind personal minimums don't fit in this category.  You can always try a landing, and if it doesn't feel right, go around and/or go else where. And in the worst case, if you can't handle the cross wind and land anyway, you may destroy your plane, but you will likely walk away.

 

And I do have wind related personal minimums.  I don't fly near mountains if the winds are above 30KTS.   And I'd probably think really hard about it at 20KTS. 

[carusoam]

Landing is always more challenging...

Cross wind take off is less hassle. You start exactly where you want to be on the runway. The procedure is easy to follow when you are ready.

If you are not ready, don't push the throttle in...

Getting to see both of T/O and landing in crosswinds with your CFI is great experience building. Discuss what can go wrong and how to avoid those things...

Until you have the cross wind experience that you will remember, it is really challenging to fly to a field not knowing if you can land there.

The planning data is available via ADSB, but the windsock will be your preferred realtime data source. When a cold front passes over an airport, the ADSB wind data can be completely wrong. This happens somewhere every day...

You will have the same questions about weather at both places until your experience level significantly increases. Winds, snow, rain, ice, equipment failures etc.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

With a departure you are lined up as noted above. When approaching the airport how the wind is blowing will greatly affect your positioning in the pattern when and how you make your turns will determine your final approach and weather you need to execute a missed and go around which present challenges of there own. And as long as you take your time stay ahead of the airplane can be lots of fun. Spend time in your practice area flying your airplane over the fixed reference points pick a long straight road and pretend it's your runway and practice flying the box and keeping your airplane in the same position each time around.

[Rik]

Thanks!

[M016576]

I'll land in upto 30kts of crosswind in the mooney IF I have a wide runway 100-150ft wide. But minimums are important as I remember being a fresh pilot and got my first 20ish kt crosswind landing in after a long cross country. Not fun. Should have looked ahead.

30 kts of direct crosswind component? That's an awful lot... My J runs out of rudder at about 20kts of direct crosswind.

[midlifeflyer]

 

Was wondering what people do if ATIS say winds X @ X and the runways are perpendicular to the X? 

Land or go elsewhere.

 

Does anyone know if Foreflight shows the wind in formation when you are in the air? Never used it other than on the ground.

If you have Stratus, yes. But it is the same surface wind information you get by listening to ATIS or AWOS, although you can't get it much further out. You can also get it by calling Flight Service (or Flight Watch for a little while more).

[ryoder]

Don't take any forum advice over the advice of your cfi. As a student pilot your cfi needs to be the final word on stuff like this. It's good discussion but you must go by your cfis assessment and any limitations he puts in your logbook. You probably already knew that and so did everyone here but I feel it must be said a couple of times.

[midlifeflyer]

Everyone has their minimums for their plane but which is most relevant, the cross winds at takeoff or the cross winds that might be at the landing location?

 

Being a student pilot, I have to face that the plane has a cross wind limit and that's that. But if the wind is good on takeoff who's to say that might not change when it comes time to land.  Find an alternative or do you crab, slip or land faster to counter the wind? Or not go at all?

 

Ultimately, that's a discussion you should be having with your CFI but here are the general guidelines I personally use and teach:

 

1. There is no difference between the crab and slip methods. In both, you eventually need to have the airplane (with some notable exceptions that don;t apply to most light GA aircraft)  land with the airplane longitudinally aligned with the runway. The common argument between proponents of the two is only about when in the process one transitions from a crab to a slip.

 

2. Only increase airspeed  if the crosswind is accompanied by gusts and then by the usual 1/2 of the gust factor. There is ultimately no reason to increase airspeed otherwise and many reasons to keep it slow.

 

3. Always be prepared for an alternative. And don;t hesitate to use it. There's nothing shameful about a diversion and your concern about being late or arranging transportation or having to stay overnight is pretty small compared to the aftermath of the smallest landing incident.

 

Speaking of changing winds, true story: The winds changed significantly for a student of mine on his checkride. After listening to the ATIS, which was reporting a crosswinds in excess of the max demonstrated crosswind component, the DPE asked the applicant his intentions for what was to be the last landing of the test. The applicant replied that he would divert to another airport and wait it out. The DPE was pleased (I'm prety sure my student passed at that point) and suggested they do the final crosswind landing together. 

[aaronk25]

30 kts of direct crosswind component? That's an awful lot... My J runs out of rudder at about 20kts of direct crosswind.

Mine runs out of rudder too. By not using rudder until final moment of touch down on upwind wheel will be aligned with the runway for a split second prior to touchdown.

The challenge is to not activate rudder to soon where plane starts to drift across the runway where the wheel would scrub and be side loaded excessively.

I should say I limit it to 20kts crosswind when the wife is aboard.

[FloridaMan]

Also, when calculating your crosswind component, I like to use the clock method. Think of 60 degrees as pretty close to 100 percent of the wind speed as crosswind. 30 degrees is roughly 50%. So take the degree difference between the runway alignment and the winds. Think of the face of a clock like a pie chart and the fill being your crosswind component. It's not perfect, but neither are the weather reports perfect to the knot.

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