Update for Mooney WAAS, ADS-B Upgrades for Stec equipped planes

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Robert C. said:

Russ,

Thanks for staying on this and he update. Do you think a "letter writing campaign" of some sort might help?

Robert

Perhaps a check writing campaign is what is sought by one of the players

[Robert C.]

Mike, I'd like to think that Mooney is aware that a bunch of checks will be written the day they announce the availability of a WAAS upgrade for STec-55X owners. I'm still trying to figure out what it would take for them to head down that road.

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Robert C. said:

Mike, I'd like to think that Mooney is aware that a bunch of checks will be written the day they announce the availability of a WAAS upgrade for STec-55X owners. I'm still trying to figure out what it would take for them to head down that road.

It might be a check is needed from Mooney to Garmin....

[Txbyker]

25 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

Mike, I'd like to think that Mooney is aware that a bunch of checks will be written the day they announce the availability of a WAAS upgrade for STec-55X owners. I'm still trying to figure out what it would take for them to head down that road.

Robert,  

Perhaps if we can somehow figure out a number of potential upgrades there are it will help.  Not sure of the costs which I am sure will affect the number.  I hear that for the GFC700 they must upgrade GIAs which could be tens of thousands.  Not sure what we would need for STECs however.

Russ

[VetRepp]

As one of those affected, I feel it is a Garmin problem but Mooney needs to use whatever influence/Muscle it has to get Garmin motivated. The GTX 345 satisfies the 2020 ABS-B issue. But for us to have GPS - WAAS approaches we need to upgrade the GIA's to GIA-W's. Probably 95% of the electronics is the same inside the box, What I'd like to see is Garmin do a swap out upgrade on the GIA's. (I know you would still need WAAS antennas - you would need that anyway with the GTX345 path) . Experimental builders don't put G1000's in their planes. G1000 is mainly in the certified manufacturers planes - of which there are fewer and fewer, Avidyne has good products also - Maybe Mooney should threaten to switch unless.....    

To avoid Garmin greed, I think Mooney should use it's muscle to get them to do this at a reasonable expense for their mutual customers. That would just leave the issue of the compatibility with STEC 55. This already works with the current setup on non-WAAS GPS and ILS approaches. And if working out the WAAS  part it's that big of an issue, I would be OK with having it placarded as  'Autopilot coupled GPS-WAAS approached not authorized' (I hand-Fly approaches anyway)

It shouldn't cost $20k ++ to upgrade the GIA's,

Am I missing something?

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, VetRepp said:

It shouldn't cost $20k ++ to upgrade the GIA's,

Am I missing something?

I do feel your concern.  However, let me play the devil's advocate if I may.  

Just suppose I, and not another guy named Jerry, am CEO of Mooney.  

Do I spend (say) $500K to certify an upgrade affecting a couple dozen ten-year-old aircraft built by the previous owners of Mooney?  

My Engineering team predicts the break-even list price of said upgrade is (again, say) $55K.  However the current owners will be angry if price is above $25K.  Or, I can keep my team focused on the M10 program, which MUST succeed or my financial backers will drop out and the company dies.

What do I do?

I'd do just what I suspect the other Jerry is doing about your problem.

Sorry.

 

[Jeff_S]

While the basis of your economic argument is sound, it is more than a couple dozen aircraft we're talking about. Let's say 50 of us would pony up $20K each for the upgrade. That's a million bucks. Granted, some of that goes to Garmin, but I also don't think it would cost $500K for Mooney to do the certification. The equipment all exists, as does the software. They just need to put it in a plane and test it.

I don't know what the actual numbers are, but the point is, on the face of it it seems like a reasonable business proposition.

[VetRepp]

6 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 let me play the devil's advocate if I may.  ....

What do I do?

Well, I can’t say I agree with your Math or the basis of your argument, but that's  not relevant,

I believe your point is whether it's worth it or not for the New Mooney to do it.

 

To continue on with the ‘hypothetical  devils advocate CEO’. The question is ‘what’s a company’s reputation worth’. How much is taking care of your former and hopefully future customers worth;  Is showing  prospective customers that you’ll stand by your product, a good business decision. Especially since Bad PR travels 10x faster and farther than good PR.

And considering before Jerry Chen bought the company, some pilots wouldn’t consider buying a Mooney because they couldn’t be assured there would be parts or factory support there for them. This on a small scale is what’s happening.

Now from what I understand, they had already committed to doing it last year, (and presumably would have budgeted for it) and from what I remember they said it would be ready @ 6 mo ago, So to drop it now affects the new companies reputation.  I think when Jerry Chen bought the company, part of what he paid for was its reputation and Goodwill.  I hope  his intent wasn’t  to leverage the reputation in order to sell entry level Planes to the Chinese market; but rather doing that as a means of getting cash so they  can still produce high-quality, efficient, best in class airplanes with a loyal following.  

 

But I think the real problem is Garmin prices – They want to charge exorbitantly to correct a product that became somewhat of a liability after only a couple years and didn’t step up and provide a realistic upgrade path. I also think STEC should dig into their pockets to assist in the solution as well.

 

I apologize for the subjective Soap Box,

What I would like to know objectively is what is the real issue with certification?, what is actually involved?

It’s known that the GIA63W works with G1000; It’s known they work in that airframe; It’s known that STEC55x works with G1000/GIA 63 on GPS approaches. The only issue I see with the setup is the STEC 55x working with the GIA63W on WAAS approaches. Is the GIA63 really that much different than the GIA 63W, that Garmin couldn't swap out / upgrade at a reasonable cost. So why not induce Garmin to do a swap/ upgrade of the GIA 63 to GIA63W, and disable or placard the Autopilot for WAAS approaches.

This would assist in the ADS-B compliance and enable WAAS approaches (just not coupled to the autopilot)

[kortopates]

Reading this thread gives me the sense that folks expectations on the cost of WAAS upgrade are way under reality. I would estimate more like $40K and up. Its not going to happen for $20K. This shouldn't be a surprise. G1000 were used on many airframes that have already been through this. Take Cessna for example; it cost $20K back in 2007 for the upgrade kit that included 2 GIA 63W - which are the main guts of the G1000 which include the entire nav/com/GPS and data aggregation services. Now fast forward to more recent Mooneys equipped with the G700 AP that Mooney has certified and began offering kits in 2013. One MS'er reported cost at $29K for the upgrade w/o vertical approach capability and $35K for with vertical approach capability in 2014. Its 2016 now and Mooney has yet to test the system with the STEC AP - you know the cost is going up from 2014 prices since it requires additional testing for the STEC AP.  

Personally, I'd think as the price climbs closer to $50K its going to make more economic sense to yank the G1000 and replace it with its equivalent in the form of a G500/600 with a pair of GTN navigators, GTX345 (or substitute another manufacturer's equivalent boxes) and a approved for Primary engine analyzer and modern digital backup instrument(s) - because that's about what a full premium panel would cost including a 337 field approval. I know we haven't seen it happen yet, but I bet its coming. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Reading this thread gives me the sense that folks expectations on the cost of WAAS upgrade are way under reality. I would estimate more like $40K and up. Its not going to happen for $20K....... Now fast forward to more recent Mooneys equipped with the G700 AP that Mooney has certified and began offering kits in 2013. One MS'er reported cost at $29K for the upgrade w/o vertical approach capability and $35K for with vertical approach capability in 2014. Its 2016 now and Mooney has yet to test the system with the STEC AP - you know the cost is going up from 2014 prices since it requires additional testing for the STEC AP.

Sounds reasonable to me, alas. I also expect as the price moves past $50K few owners will opt to upgrade.  Expecting only a dozen or two upgrades to be sold Mooney has to price the mod accordingly.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, VetRepp said:

I also think STEC should dig into their pockets to assist in the solution as well.

STEC later combined with Chelton, which became Cobham, which is now Genesys. Meggitt may have been in there too at some point, but I think the STEC which supplied autopilots 10+ years ago is way too far removed from this problem to care about a solution.

[Godfather]

What is the current cost for upgrading the 700 AP / waas for the GX models?

[Ftlausa]

And because of all the cost uncertainty and general uncertainty cited above, I opted not to buy a Stec/G1000 Ovation.  I suspect that Mooney staff and management are preoccupied with the new model certifications and re-energizing the brand right now, and although they may genuinely want to assist current owners with this upgrade issue, the success of the company going forward is probably in their view more dependent on what they are doing with the new models than what we would ask of them to do with the old models. 

The fact that there is now an apparently easy fix to the 2020 issue with the introduction of the GTX345 further reduces the need for them to tackle this issue.  Although a WAAS upgrade to the NAV/autopilot would be nice, the plane will continue to fly without it -- so it becomes a want, not a need.  I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever, but if I were to take a guess, I would not count on an autopilot WAAS upgrade anytime soon.  I truly hope I am wrong, but if a fix does come, I predict it will be quite a while longer, and will probably cost more than what most will want to pay (based upon the current upgrade cost in other brand aircraft).       

[Txbyker]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

STEC later combined with Chelton, which became Cobham, which is now Genesys. Meggitt may have been in there too at some point, but I think the STEC which supplied autopilots 10+ years ago is way too far removed from this problem to care about a solution.

I spoke with STEC too just to confirm if there is a third equation to this puzzle and they confirmed there is nothing required of the STEC 55X for what we need.  It will fly whatever is presented to it from the GPSS or GPS source.  Holds, patterns, etc will track just fine in NAV or GPSS if Garmin/Mooney will present the WAAS path to the autopilot.

Russ

[Robert C.]

Russ,

That is my understanding as well. If i have read all the info correctly it is purely a software issue that can be dealt with by Mooney through the (now on hold) test flying program that they have on the shelf.

I have no insight into the cost of the GIA63 to GIA63W swap. My understanding was that the original upgrades cost north of $50k because the entire G1000 unit was replaced in order to accommodate the GFC700. We are now talking about just replacing the GIA63, not the entire box, and ofc won't have to buy the GFC700. That should bring the hardware cost down substantially. Mooney incurs the cost of the software rewrite and the certification flight program and I have no idea how to guess their cost for that and how they'd pass that along to us.

Robert

[VetRepp]

26 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

I have no insight into the cost of the GIA63 to GIA63W swap. My understanding was that the original upgrades cost north of $50k because the entire G1000 unit was replaced in order to accommodate the GFC700. We are now talking about just replacing the GIA63, not the entire box, and ofc won't have to buy the GFC700. That should bring the hardware cost down substantially. Mooney incurs the cost of the software rewrite and the certification flight program and I have no idea how to guess their cost for that and how they'd pass that along to us.

Thanks Robert, That was my original point, Switching to GFC700 is not a part of this. Also I suspect most of the circuitry in the GIA63 vs GIA63W is the same and really shouldn't be that big of a problem for Garmiin to do a swap upgrade to our existing GIA63's, bringing the cost down,

Thanks for clarifying the STEC angle - good to know. The GTX 345 handles the rest.

(See Below) But the problem now is Mooney promised it all including STEC WAAS. If they hadn't, there would be no more issues (There was also another quote that included Mooney saying at a reasonable price - but didn't have time to find),  I understand things change but this makes it a credibility issue.

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2015 at 11:43 AM, sellis said:

Mooney International does have a certification program that will start approximately late 2nd quarter. We will be using a company owned Ovation for the certification program. After FAA approval all Stec autopilot and G1000 equipped aircraft will be  eligible for upgrades to ADS-B out and WAAS upgrades including all vertical approach modes. We anticipate to receive approval in approximately late 3rd quarter. At this time we will then offer a retrofit kit for the mentioned aircraft. Many owners of these aircraft are understandably concerned with this issue, but in no way have we forgotten you owners of these aircraft. We will issue a press release when the program is complete. I will also post the release to this website. Your patience is greatly appreciated.

I can do fine without WAAS approaches at this time  - The concern is how soon the future will eliminate ILS's (I suspect not too quickly), and the decreased value of the aircraft w/o WAAS - So now is the time to pursue it.

Thanks Russ (and everyone else) for staying on top of it

Roger

[mike_elliott]

Somewhere I heard there were about 120 Mooney G1000/stec birds in the wild, possibly from Trey Hughes, (forgive me if I am wrong, Trey) Perhaps if all y'all (texanese) came to some agreement and presented Mooney with a business proposal to do everything you want, they could hire the resources to do this as your contractor. 120x40K should get someone's attention I would think. The real trick would be to gain consensus on how much to let go of for what you want. Ill bet Tom Bowen fields a call about this once a week if not more. Yes, Stacey Ellis did say Mooney had a certification program for this on the drawing boards, but did not PROMISE it would be done, just that it was slated. Businesses can and do change plans in order to survive, and perhaps a show of good faith (like 1/2 megabuck in escrow and a solid commitment to buy xxx units/stc's from the owner base) might motivate a for profit company like Mooney to make a profit. Just some thoughts, YMMV

[Jerry 5TJ]

The first year for G1000 was 2006, I read.   Mooney built 64 Ovations and 20 Bravos that year, says http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm
 

That's 'sort-of' confirmed by a market review saying Mooney built a total of 75 planes in 2006 and 79 in 2007 -- see http://www.aia-aerospace.org/assets/ff_08_production.pdf

Then production ceased in 2008.   

So there may have been about 140 G1000/STEC planes built as Mike-Elliot recalls. 

 

[Cruiser]

somewhere in the certification chain there is a major problem if the OEM Manufacturer cannot offer an upgrade path to its product.

Either the FAA, Garmin or Mooney need a re-alignment to prevent future issues like this one.

Since when does it benefit anyone to walk away from support of current value ¼ million investment?

I certainly would not consider a G1000 equipped plane if there was no option for upgrades.

[KSMooniac]

They certainly can offer the upgrade...this has nothing to do with the certification obstacle.  The Type Certificate would need to be amended or an STC granted for the upgrade, but it is well within the realm of possibility for this to happen.

[Danb]

Jerry don't forget 2005, my BravoGX is a 2005 built in 12/2004

[Danb]

Tom change that to 1/2 million investment, we were told by Mooney our plane was WAAS upgradeable in 2005, technically the truth I guess?

[Jerry 5TJ]

How about a market-driven price estimation? 

What is the difference in price between a stock 2006 G1000 Ovation and a similar plane with the WAAS upgrade? 

Isn't it about $50K?  

[Cruiser]

Scott,

Dan obviously wants to upgrade to WAAS, please let him know what the upgrade path is, It is not clear to him (or me).

[KSMooniac]

7 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

Scott,

Dan obviously wants to upgrade to WAAS, please let him know what the upgrade path is, It is not clear to him (or me).

I don't know anything official, so my posting here is just my own speculation.  We all know it is technically possible... the boxes exist (WAAS receivers & antenna) and we know the 55x A/P will accept WAAS signals with no mods whatsoever.  What is left is to fix the software driving the G1000 system to take advantage of the W signals, provide GPSS, etc.  Each G1000 software load is to my knowledge a collaboration between Garmin and the OEM, so I *think* both must be involved to revise the software.  (Mooney certainly owns the product, so Garmin cannot on their own offer an upgrade path.)  Then the software must be extensively tested (ground and flight) to uncover any bugs, and then it will need to be approved by the FAA (after their own evaluation and flight testing) before it can be pushed to dealers for upgrades in the field.  I know from my time at Bombardier in their flight test center that the software checking is an enormous task.  I hope it would be less so in Part 23, but I don't know for sure.  

I don't know why Mooney is not fixing this issue.  There is a staff in Kerrville, and there is a different one in Chino working on the M10.  Some Kerrville folks support the M10 program, but I'm not sure who/how many, or if any avionics-related work is done from Kerrville.  I don't understand why the existing G1000 WAAS software load cannot be easily modified to work with the 55x instead of the GFC700.  It should be fairly simple from my perspective, but I'm a structures guy (mostly) and not a sparky.

We likely not far from the point where it makes sense to rip out the G1000 and install your own bespoke panel system via 337 like Paul K mentioned above.  It might be easy for an M20R since there are non-G1000 versions already, but it might be a bit harder on an M20TN since I think all are G1000.  I know if I owned such a bird and the W upgrade gets near 50 AMU, I'd rip it out and start over, and try to sell my components as spares before the value goes to zero.  I would of course get an avionics shop lined up first, and make sure I could get it approved through my local FSDO.

This is one of the primary reasons I'll never aspire to own a G1000 or similar system.  You're completely hostage to the OEM and Garmin for upgrades...look at all the new "stuff" coming out right now with 2-way links to a tablet.  That is just one example of something cool that won't likely happen on a G1000 plane.  I've had W and GPSS for 9+ years in my old plane, and it is wonderful.  Don Kaye's M20M panel is an extreme example of what is possible today that far exceeds the G1000, and likely will for as long as the G1000 is around.