Buying a Mooney!

[FlyJose]

Hello from the new guy.

I am very close to finishing my PPL, over 3 years in the making (long story, in the Army), and I am finally looking to buy a Mooney. Since this will be my first aircraft I was looking to see if you guys have any experience to share about Mooneyland. I was thinking of using them as my broker...any ideas and advise will be appreciated

Thanks

Jose

[The-sky-captain]

I have not dealt with Richard Z with Mooneyland other than a few phone calls so I have no feedback there. I purchased my plane from Coy Jacobs with Mooney Mart in Venice, Florida. It was the worst possible experience I could have imagined. I posted the problems earlier but be sure to stay away. A few other members have PM'ed me with similiar problems. I would recommend Jimmy Garrison with All American down in San Antonio. He is an honest, straightforward guy with a lot of Mooney selling to his credit. Good luck, Mooneys are great planes. 

[FlyJose]

Fortunately I read your posts and heard some other bad things so they are out  (mooneymart)...not to mention, the treatment I got over the phone did not make any more willing to change my opinion.

Thanks

Jose

[GeorgePerry]

I can echo those comments...avoid Coy and I'd steer clear of Mooneyland as well.  Phone communications only, but I was not impressed.  My advice is find someone "local" who's Mooney smart to help you look.  This isn't rocket surgery...It's mechanics.  Find a plane with no corrosion, a good maintenance history, organized log books, hangered etc...and have a qualified A&P look it over. 

 

This advice is somewhat abreviated since alot of the "how too buy" disscussions are already on the forum.  Here's the link to a how to guide...It's my opinion but I think you might find it helpful.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=2&threadid=9

[The-sky-captain]

I did briefly talk to Mooneyland in the buying process and the owner seemed to be proud of the fact that he walked away from three or four airplane wrecks that he was ferrying or picking up to sell. It made me wonder about the quality of planes that he was representing. His website was hell to navigate too.

[MooneyPilot231]

Mooneyland "Z" wants you to believe that finding and flying a Mooney is much harder than it is. If you need help locating a good plane I will help at no cost to you. You don't need a broker to buy a plane. Just a little common sense, a good prebuy/annual prior to acceptance and a few hours of flight training. Those Mooney "gurus" are in my opinion self important, uneeded jackasses! Let me know when you get ready to buy and I will help you however I can....

[TurboExec]

I'm with MooneyPilot231....I've bought and sold several airplanes, and I've helped friends find, buy, and sell airplanes.  There is no reason you need a broker to help you find an aircraft there are plenty of us around that will help you at no cost.  Most times word of mouth is the best way to find an airplane that might be for sale.  Its a buyers market right now shop around there are plenty of deals to be had.

The only deal I ever witnessed where the buyer got taken was with a broker....

[N207LS]

I ditto the remarks from the last two posts on not needing a broker.  I have purchased three aiplanes in the past few years and never used a broker.  All were bought from individuals like us, who loved their airplanes.  There are also some great posts in the Vintage Mooney Forum on prospective Mooney buyers.  I also agree that in this economy, there are a ton of great deals in the Mooney marketplace.  I would make a few specific suggestions to you to assist in the process...

1. Make a list of your "have to" and "want to" items before you go shopping for airplanes...  For me, my list would include at least a 430 or 530 WAAS, as well as newer avionics.  Also, newer paint, newer interior, and no leaks in the tanks, etc...  After you have your list of haves and wants then begin to look for the plane that matches up with your list.  Take your time figuring out what you really want then match the airplane to your desires.  It is much cheaper than going the other direction.  Avionics upgrades, paint, interiors, speed mods, etc are not cheap.  Let someone else absorb the depreciation in these items for you...

2. Thoroughly go through the airplane.  I know this seems basic, but I have seen people go to look at planes and not spend more than 10-15 minutes looking them over before getting into the log books.  When I bought my Mooney, I spent 2 1/2 hours going over every inch of the airframe, cabin, and inspection areas.  I crawled under the plane and went through each gear area, crawled under the panel, etc... Before spending thousands of $$$ take some time and get greasy.  You will really see the difference in a well maintained airplane and a poorly maintained plane (clean wiring behind the panel versus spaghetti, etc...)

3. Do a thorough pre-purchase inspection with a reputable and trustworthy A&P.  This goes without saying, but the more time that you are willing to spend here the more future headaches you most likely are avoiding. I would suggest talking with other Mooney owners in your area and use the A&P for your pre-buy that you plan on using for your maintenence. 

4. Read over all of the log book entries from most recent to oldest and familiarize yourself with the history of the maintenece.  The logs tell a story, make sure to read it!  Read the last few annuals and see how thorough they are.  Are they just a sign off, or are they a full page of small print with lots of details.  I like details when it comes to my airplanes.

5. Enjoy the process, it's actually quite fun and educational.  It's okay to look at several airplanes and pass on them if they are not what you want.  Personally, I have spend a lot of $$$ flying back and forth to look at airplanes that I have not bought.  It is usually cheaper to walk away then end up with either a plane that you are not happy with, or worse yet a maintenence nightmare.

Best of luck and feel free to PM me with any questions.  You are making the best decision of your aviation career in purchasing a Mooney...  I am completely convinced that a Mooney offers the best $ for $ value in the aviation market today.  I am sure, like most of us, you will end up falling in love with your Mooney.

Aaron

 

[Mooneyland]

After swearing off involvement in some Mooney forums years ago due mostly to gossipy sewing circle type posts, I find this forum interesting and informative; so I joined up.

In the interest of accuracy; I have been flying since 1971 and flying Mooney's since 1974. My business Coast to Coast Aircraft aka "Mooneyland" is now 20 years old. Within that 20 years, I have never "crashed" an airplane unlike what is reported in this string. I did hit a tree in flight due to a go-around caused by a large deer, but the Mooney 231 did not crash thankfully; although it was touch and go for some minutes after the encursion. The only other time that I bent a Mooney was due to a service center incorrectly adjusting the gear downloading on an old corroded airplane they asked me to test fly and the gear collapsed on taxi. I was not involved with the sale nor acquisition of that airplane; just doing a favor to Ken Shoup at the time.

As for using a broker or not in the location or sale of an airplane; I have seen all too many owner/pilots run out of aviation because they knew little about the process and less about some unscrupulous mechanics who are in it for the buck, and many simply cannot afford ownership due to these facts. I cannot understate the importance of hiring the right mechanic. I have met some really nice mechanics that know next to nothing about our Mooney airplanes; what to look for; idiosyncrasies of the animal; while others attempt to make a new airplane out of a used one unneccisarily. I think that having the right mechanic is tantamount to having the right doctor. Both can seriously affect your health as well as financial issues. The purchase process of an airplane can be and is often an intimidating process and for those who are not very experienced and can open up a financial can of worms especially since our fleet of airplanes is not getting any younger and there are plenty of money pits out there for sale to unsuspecting buyers who take the word of a mechanic as gospell when he may know little about the Mooney. They have to trust because they don't know any different. Mooneyland is a different type of company than are most other brokers/locators; and the reason is very simple. We are in it purely for the love of the "animal"; Mooney aircraft; because they are so much better, stronger, and safer than anything in their class. Flying is fun alright, but it is a very serious business and I have created this company to aid in the buying and selling process with safety being the most important thing in my mind and to date, I have not lost a single Mooneyland customer to a crash of an airplane that I have sold them. Lucky in part no doubt, but I also credit the fact that I am the only dealer I know who is an actual partner in that ownership for the life of the ownership remaining in constant contact with my "Mooneylanders" in saving them tons of money over the years by offering my cost as a dealer for anything they may want or need now and in the future, providing tech support and my sources and resources so that they don't get screwed by their mechanic of choice, and offering alternatives to suggested repairs or mods, and advice as to how to keep their flying a safe endeavor. My proof of that love are in the many articles I have written for EVERYONE on my website; customers and non customers alike. I challenge anyone to write as many words as I have on the subject of flying and Mooney's in general; and for no personal gain. To date I have not charged anyone for that information even though the dollar costs to me are huge over time.

At Mooneyland we strive to see to it that no one is financially buried in an aircraft; that the amount they pay for the bird is no different than if buying from a private party direct, and our commissions get our selling customers net dollar is about the same should they have sold the plane on their own. We also have a policy that if you decide to sell your airplane within a year or two of purchase as many do; that we will get your purchase price back for you or we will fully market the airplane at no cost. That is the closest thing to a guarantee that one can get in a used airplane purchase.

To me the best decisions in life are made when one can make that decision intelligently taking everything into account whereby inexperienced private buyers may not even know the questions let alone the answers; especially when compared to those like us who live, eat, and breath Mooney airplane's on a daily basis. How much is that kind of asset worth to the unsuspecting and uneducated buyer? Ton$! I also attempt to fly with every one of my customers where possible in order to help insure a safe and proper transformation to the Mooney flying machine. I have spend up to six full days with customers who need that training and I never charge a nickel for that time, but I can sleep at night knowing that he is less likely to kill himself and others armed with that free of charge experience. Remember the old computer saying? Garbage in, garbage out? A given pilot can only build upon the way in which he was taught to fly by his instructors, and I am sad to report that the majority of pilots that I fly with (some with lots of flying time) make serious and continuous mistakes that they are not even aware of such as over banking an airplane base to final for one instance. Another is the lack of proper rudder operation especially in the landing phase. When you can see these mistakes happening over and over, it is gratifying to know that they have finally been taught correctly and are better and safer pilots for it, never being taught right to begin with. I love flying so much that I refuse to die while flying; and the best way to avoid that pitfall is to fly with the right people and learn all there is to know or at least make that the goal.

As I said, I don't usually sign up for forums, but you all seem like a bunch of honest guys who love their Mooneys and I wanted to set the record straight that not all aircraft brokers are alike.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

Fly safe,

richard

[GeorgePerry]

To each his own, but I'll say it again for the unitiated:  Buying a Mooney isn't rocket surgery...It's mechanics.  There's no vodoo magic about these planes.  They are no more or less complicated than Cessnas Pipers or Beachcraft....They're just different. 

Bottom line: Find a plane with no corrosion, a good maintenance history, organized log books, hangered etc...and have a qualified "Mooney Smart" A&P or AI that you trust or comes highly recommended, look it over and buy the best aircraft you can afford.

Alittle common sense and due diligence goes a long way.... 

[Cruiser]

Quote: Mooneyland

snip......

 My proof of that love are in the many articles I have written for EVERYONE on my website; customers and non customers alike. I challenge anyone to write as many words as I have on the subject of flying and Mooney's in general; and for no personal gain. To date I have not charged anyone for that information even though the dollar costs to me are huge over time.

snip........

As I said, I don't usually sign up for forums, but you all seem like a bunch of honest guys who love their Mooneys and I wanted to set the record straight that not all aircraft brokers are alike.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

Fly safe,

richard

[FlyDave]

Tom,

I Agree - good information but his website design makes me queasy.

Quote: Cruiser

 

Please, please, please, please get a professional webservice to help you clean up your website. I respect your years of experience and knowledge of Mooney airplanes and I believe you do offer very important information that all Mooney pilots could benefit from. BUT your website is so bad that I cannot read it! The use of colors, flashy glitz and animations is just too distracting. It drives me away.

TomK

N5763H 

[PTK]

The best advice anyone can give to the buyer of a Mooney is this:  BUY THE MOONEY THAT HAS BEEN MAINTAINED BY A REPUTABLE MOONET SERVICE CENTER FOR A LONG TIME AND FITS YOUR BUDGET TO CONTINUE THIS LEVEL OF MAINTENANCE.  This translates into value for you the buyer and the next buyer if you decide to sell.  The airplane I bought was maintained by Dugosh in Kerville since new each and every year of its life.  The level of confidence you will have in your airplane knowing that it has been maintained by Mooney professionals is invaluable. Good Luck.

[PTK]

The best advice anyone can give to the buyer of a Mooney is this:  BUY THE MOONEY THAT HAS BEEN MAINTAINED BY A REPUTABLE MOONEY SERVICE CENTER FOR A LONG TIME AND FITS YOUR BUDGET TO CONTINUE THIS LEVEL OF MAINTENANCE.  This translates into value for you the buyer and the next buyer if you decide to sell.  The airplane I bought was maintained by Dugosh in Kerville since new each and every year of its life.  The level of confidence you will have in your airplane knowing that it has been maintained by Mooney professionals is invaluable. Good Luck.

Pete T. Kousoulis

N5690N

[PTK]

This is how you buy a Mooney.  Find a model you like and fits your budget that has:

1. 
   
2. BEEN CONTINUASLY MAINTAINED BY A REPUTABLE MOONEY SERVICE CENTER FOR A LONG, LONG, LONG  TIME
   
3. HAS BEEN HANGARED FOR ALL ITS LIFE (call around the airport and confirm it!)
   
4. HAS NO CORROSION
   
5. BEEN FLOWN REGULARLY (Look at logbooks and do some math)
   
6. HAS HAD REGULAR OIL CHANGES EVERY 25-30 HOURS (Look at logbooks and do some math) 
   
7. HAS ORIGINAL AND COMPLETE LOG BOOKS FROM THE DAY IT WAS BORN IN KERVILLE,
   
8. NDH
   

Have a reputable Mooney Service Center (different from the one maintaining it) do an ANNUAL FOR YOU regrdless if it needs one or not.  Pay for it and deduct from the sales price. The seller will have no problem with this. If he/she does have a problem with this walk away and find another.  They are out there.  Do not trust these Mooney gurus who will "find you an airplane"  Use these criteria and find it yourself! Good Luck!

Dr. Pete, N5690N

[harm38lw]

I have just started the process of looking for a 201J

[GeorgePerry]

Your off to a good start.  This forum has lots of friendly knowledgable folks who are happy to answer your questions.  If you've explored the site and read some of the posts you'll notice there is alot of very useful info.

Good luck

 

[Greg_D]

Quote: Mooneyland

 I challenge anyone to write as many words as I have on the subject of flying and Mooney's in general; and for no personal gain. To date I have not charged anyone for that information even though the dollar costs to me are huge over time.

[MooneyPilot231]

Let me disagree with a couple of statements. My aircraft has now flown over 200 hours since I purchased it 9 months ago. The pre-buy annual was done by a Mooney Service Center in the Northeast. In the 200 hours since I bought the plane I have had two major issues. Both existed when I landed the day I brought the plane back to Texas. The fuel pressure was so low that the airplane wouldn't idle unless the throttle was kept most of the way in and there was brake fluid leaking from under the left wing where hard line becomes flex line. Either of these problems could have resulted in injury or death to myself and my co-pilot. Also, my plane hasn't been hangared in years and has no corrosion inside or out. Finding a plane that has been hangared is preferable but don't eliminate a plane just because it has been stored outside. Definitely don't eliminate a plane just because it hasn't been cared for a by a Mooney Service Center. These planes are very little different than most planes and any competent A&P is quite capable of maintaining one. I can honestly say the only mechanical issues I have had were due to a Mooney Service Center.....(oh yes I got a refund and an apology!)

P.S. I agree with the rest, Mooneyland needs to be rebuilt from scratch, website designers work cheap these days!

[harm38lw]

I am in the market for my first Mooney and am looking for a M20J-201 if anyone knows of such for sale.

 

lwh

[fantom]

aso.com should keep yo on-line shopping for awaile.

[dlthig]

Check out the '84 that just poped up on www.trade-a-plane.com

 

[M20BE]

I agree on the Mooneyland design. In fact, he should hook up and link his info to this great forum. It's better to be strong togheter. 

 

I have ordered the cd's from Mooneyland to support the site because i love it when somebody makes the effort to give a lot of information away for free (even if it's almost impossible to read due to the color and wrong html coding) i wasn't really impressed with the cd's but i felt it was more money i dontated to support his site. 

[Amelia]

Glad to see others warning against one Venice, FL self-aggrandizing Mooney guru. .. I thought it might've been just me. My experience with Jacobs's half-hearted tank-sealing efforts was, shall we say, disappointing, not to mention expensive.

[fantom]

"I thought it might've been just me."

Not by a loooooong shot! It's quite a large club.