Aircraft Market - Wots... uh the Deal

[BigTex]

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be a glut of planes out there but almost none that's well maintained and equipped the way I'd consider purchasing it.   

 

Mine has what I consider to be pretty basic.  It has: GNS430W, KX155A, GTX330ES, KN64, PMA7000B, JPI700 and STEC50 w/GPSS.  If I wanted to purchase another plane that's equipped with similar avionics, it's almost impossible to fine.

 

I'd hate to be in the market for a plane today.  Large inventories of most planes but not many equipped close to what I currently have in mine.  Everyone is saying it's a buyers market but I'm not seeing it.  Maybe if you're looking for something basic that has dated avionics, that might be the case.  But if looking for a one that has current avionics, good luck.

 

Maybe the market's always been this way and I'm just paying more attention to it.  But I have to ask, Wot... uh the Deal?

[manoflamancha]

That's why I'm having tough time buying. I'm looking for

Turbo charged for high altitude

Garmin 530W or 750 GTN WAAS GPS

Decent two axis autopilot like STEC 55x or Century 2000 or KFC 200

Mode S transponder

The few planes with these are selling for way more $$$ than it would cost me to put brand new avionics into a used 231 or 252 Mooney

[aaronk25]

I'm guessing it is a lot of planes that haven't been flying and owned by owners who are sick of paying on going expenses and the last 10 years or so were the end of there ownership run.

Leaving a bunch of unmodified dated planes....

[BigTex]

So if you're looking for a deal on a neglected plane, it's a buyers market. Otherwise it's a sellers market.

[carusoam]

The challenges have been the same since Art and Al were building planes...

The price of a plane used to be 50% engine, and 50% airframe.

The only thing that has changed is...the market has added another 50% for the instrument panel.

That is what would have happened if I were to install A big GTN in my old C...

Marry a girl that likes airplanes...,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

My wife is always amenable to spending money on goodies that enhance safety. Almost anything my heart lusts for can be wrapped in that package.

[Mark89114]

I too have been looking but have come to the realization to get what I want I will have to spend more, that is just the way it is.

If you want an airplane configured exactly how you want it you will have to spend your dollars that in reality you won't get back.

You might spend $50K on a new panel but a year or two later I can guarantee you won't get your $50K back.  That is the reason you see airplanes listed as "$80K invested selling for $40K".  There is NO invesment in an airplane, accept that. 

 

For example I am looking for an Ovation, price spread (for what I can afford) is from $175K to $250K, the $175K airplane has high time engine and boat anchor avionics, the $250K example has low time engine and updated panel.  By my napkin math, OH engine is $40K and adding a Garmin of some flavor $20K which puts you really close to the $250K airplane.  Obviously these are all asking prices and there are more intricacies than I really want to think about.

[Bob - S50]

I agree with Mark, but that's true for everything including houses and cars.

 

So figure out what it would cost to install a panel you would be happy with, figure out what your bottom line would be for total cost, subtract the upgrade cost from the bottom line and come up with a purchase price for a plane.

 

Just because someone asks $80,000 doesn't mean they won't sell it for less.  They may say no initially, but after it sits on the market for 6 months and their costs keep adding up, they may change their mind.  Just make sure the airframe is in good condition, the useful load is acceptable, and leave your number with them.  Tell them to call if they change their minds (and subject to a pre-purchase of course).  There are airplanes for sale that were for sale back when we bought ours almost 2 years ago.  If they have been doing the annual, paying for insurance, and tie down/hangar; they've probably spent something north of $12,000 just sitting on it.

 

That way you end up with ...exactly... what you want, not just something acceptable.

 

Good luck.

 

Bob

[Cruiser]

Maybe it's just me but there seems to be a glut of planes out there but almost none that's well maintained and equipped the way I'd consider purchasing it.   

 

Mine has what I consider to be pretty basic.  It has: GNS430W, KX155A, GTX330ES, KN64, PMA7000B, JPI700 and STEC50 w/GPSS.  If I wanted to purchase another plane that's equipped with similar avionics, it's almost impossible to fine.

 

I'd hate to be in the market for a plane today.  Large inventories of most planes but not many equipped close to what I currently have in mine.  Everyone is saying it's a buyers market but I'm not seeing it.  Maybe if you're looking for something basic that has dated avionics, that might be the case.  But if looking for a one that has current avionics, good luck.

 

Maybe the market's always been this way and I'm just paying more attention to it.  But I have to ask, Wot... uh the Deal?

 

Avionics has taken it's toll on the used markets. what you say is exactly true, but think about it...........

why would a seller spent $$$ to equip a plane the way you say when he knows he can never get that money back ?

The well equipped planes are not for sale or they are priced accordingly (and nobody wants to pay the price)

or

you get a basic panel and look at adding $50k or more in avionics.

[Mike A]

The number of K's on Controller.com have dropped from +/- 40 to 25 in about a month and a half.

[eman1200]

......gotta make it to the next meal.......

[dfgreene61]

Buy the airframe & engine then start making it your own by updating to meet your needs.  Never look at it as an investment you'll get a return on.  Look at it as a love affair with a high maintenance woman who you can't live without.

 

My high maintenance woman just cost me about $40,000 to upgrade the panel.  Now she want's paint and interior.  What can I do...can't live without her.

 

When I'm done I'll be in it around $145,000.  The way I look at it, what could I buy new for $145,000 that could match what my updated J can do for me?  Look at it that way and it's a bargain.

[1964-M20E]

Either way you have to consider how long you want to keep the plane 2 years, 5 years, 10 years or longer the longer you plan on keeping it the more sense ti makes to upgrade then you get to enjoy the upgrades. If you get one for a bargain and upgrade it then you can fix it the way you want with the latest gadgets.  If you go for one that has been upgraded you get what’s there at a huge discount.  In the end if the cost was about the same and figure conservatively on upgrades estimating more than you think then I’d probably go with the one I upgraded ten I get what I want where I want it.

[KSMooniac]

The prices of the un-updated fleet have been steadily declining for several years now, especially with a second generation of WAAS boxes on the market now to make them even more out of date with what modern buyers want (and need by 2020 anyway).  Pretty soon it will make economic sense to buy these vintage planes and modernize them to the buyer's specs without being completely upside down... just partially underwater.    Those of you hoping to find a Mooney with all that stuff might have to consider buying the best airframe they can find and then doing the upgrades yourself.  It is always cheaper to buy it already done, but you're finding out those planes are still selling quickly and at premium prices.  Figure out how long you want to wait before you decide to do it yourself.  

[Marauder]

Avionics has taken it's toll on the used markets. what you say is exactly true, but think about it...........

why would a seller spent $$$ to equip a plane the way you say when he knows he can never get that money back ?

The well equipped planes are not for sale or they or priced accordingly (and nobody wants to pay the price)

or

you get a basic panel and look at adding $50k or more in avionics.

Tom nailed it. I'm one of those folks who have made the investment in a plane and have no intention of selling it. My motivation for not upgrading to another plane was two fold:

1. The airplane I own serves the majority of the missions I fly. It was rough there for a bit when my kids got big enough to impact weight & balance. I needed to rent a plane a few times for family vacations. But closing on empty nester status now, I don't need a 4 place airplane capable of carrying a lot. I also don't have a regular need to go out west over the big hills.

2. Buying a more capable plane also meant that I was buying an unknown plane. It took me a lot of time and money to get my plane right just from a mechanical perspective. I am not someone who tolerates nagging problems and I could see myself throwing a lot of money getting another plane to a status that I felt comfortable with.

As for the avionic upgrades, like a few of us, my upgrades were done to improve the pleasure and utility of the plane for me, not the next guy or gal. I don't expect to get my money back out but then again, I am not looking to sell.

[ArtVandelay]

Buy the airframe & engine then start making it your own by updating to meet your needs. Never look at it as an investment you'll get a return on. Look at it as a love affair with a high maintenance woman who you can't live without.

My high maintenance woman just cost me about $40,000 to upgrade the panel. Now she want's paint and interior. What can I do...can't live without her.

When I'm done I'll be in it around $145,000. The way I look at it, what could I buy new for $145,000 that could match what my updated J can do for me? Look at it that way and it's a bargain.

I agree completely but will add that vintage Mooneys have a lower ceiling, so your ROI or losses will be less with J or better as the upside is higher

[Bob_Belville]

Tom nailed it. I'm one of those folks who have made the investment in a plane and have no intention of selling it. My motivation for not upgrading to another plane was two fold:

1. The airplane I own serves the majority of the missions I fly. It was rough there for a bit when my kids got big enough to impact weight & balance. I needed to rent a plane a few times for family vacations. But closing on empty nester status now, I don't need a 4 place airplane capable of carrying a lot. I also don't have a regular need to go out west over the big hills.

2. Buying a more capable plane also meant that I was buying an unknown plane. It took me a lot of time and money to get my plane right just from a mechanical perspective. I am not someone who tolerates nagging problems and I could see myself throwing a lot of money getting another plane to a status that I felt comfortable with.

As for the avionic upgrades, like a few of us, my upgrades were done to improve the pleasure and utility of the plane for me, not the next guy or gal. I don't expect to get my money back out but then again, I am not looking to sell.

Exactly. We'll have more than 20 Mooneys here tomorrow. It will be interesting to survey owner attitudes toward avionics and instrumentation. Aspen glass, GTN class GPS, 2 axis A/P for GPSS,  integrated, comprehensive EDM, and ADS-B out for traffic and weather... I'll be folding out the stapled-navel centerspread in my old E and see if anyone is drooling. 

[Alan Fox]

you get what you pay for.....

[wishboneash]

Tom nailed it. I'm one of those folks who have made the investment in a plane and have no intention of selling it. My motivation for not upgrading to another plane was two fold:

1. The airplane I own serves the majority of the missions I fly. It was rough there for a bit when my kids got big enough to impact weight & balance. I needed to rent a plane a few times for family vacations. But closing on empty nester status now, I don't need a 4 place airplane capable of carrying a lot. I also don't have a regular need to go out west over the big hills.

2. Buying a more capable plane also meant that I was buying an unknown plane. It took me a lot of time and money to get my plane right just from a mechanical perspective. I am not someone who tolerates nagging problems and I could see myself throwing a lot of money getting another plane to a status that I felt comfortable with.

As for the avionic upgrades, like a few of us, my upgrades were done to improve the pleasure and utility of the plane for me, not the next guy or gal. I don't expect to get my money back out but then again, I am not looking to sell.

 

I have been doing upgrades over time. Replaced a non WAAS 430 with a GTN 650. Replaced an old audio panel with the Garmin 340. Then put in the GDL-88 which brought in major benefits.  Hardwired a GDL 39. Added an AoA indicator. Interior and some small fuel leaks are next. Keeping it for 5-10 years, there is no pain in this and I get to enyoy these upgrades.

[larryb]

I agree. I bought mine 3 years ago and could not find a plane with all that I wanted (engine time, paint, interior, panel.) I finally decided that I would look for a good solid airframe/engine and do a panel upgrade myself. I think the panel is the most customized part of the plane. Everybody has a different idea of what they want in it. In my case GTN's had just come out, so I was viewing GNS's as old technology. But even planes that had a 430W seemed to have an old #2 radio, transponder, audio panel, etc. Now I have a panel that I want. Other than the autopilot, there are no original 30 year old electronics in the panel.

 

Larry

[Jim Peace]

You might spend $50K on a new panel but a year or two later I can guarantee you won't get your $50K back.  

The next day you will not get your money back....

 

I really don't know why you need to have a GTN anything.....

 

I have an older Garmin 300XL and an STEC 30 with Altitude, KN64 DME etc.  I also have a free subscription to fltplan.com.  My M20C will take me anywhere safely.  And I rather look at the sectional or low chart as printed then that stupid GTN display.  I know in one second if I am good on airspace etc by looking at my iPad...not so with the GTNs I have flown.

 

Save the money you will spend on any glass avionics and put it into engine and fuel tank maintenance.  If the prop does not turn none of the other stuff matters........

[Cruiser]

Jim points out an interesting twist to this issue.

 

Those older planes with dated panels doesn't mean the owners are flying without the benefit of new technology. I'll bet most have a Garmin x96 clamped to the yoke and one or two tablets with moving map, weather and traffic somewhere in the cockpit. It just isn't in the panel.

 

Sad though that it costs $50k for a panel upgrade that doesn't have the capability you can have on a tablet for under $500

[ArtVandelay]

Jim points out an interesting twist to this issue.

Those older planes with dated panels doesn't mean the owners are flying without the benefit of new technology. I'll bet most have a Garmin x96 clamped to the yoke and one or two tablets with moving map, weather and traffic somewhere in the cockpit. It just isn't in the panel.

Sad though that it costs $50k for a panel upgrade that doesn't have the capability you can have on a tablet for under $500

Really? Does your tablet have radios? Does it do VOR navigation? Does it monitor engine performance or fuel flow?

Tablets are great but comparing a full panel to a tablet is comparing apples and oranges

[ArtVandelay]

The next day you will not get your money back....

I really don't know why you need to have a GTN anything.....

I have an older Garmin 300XL and an STEC 30 with Altitude, KN64 DME etc. I also have a free subscription to fltplan.com. My M20C will take me anywhere safely. And I rather look at the sectional or low chart as printed then that stupid GTN display. I know in one second if I am good on airspace etc by looking at my iPad...not so with the GTNs I have flown.

Save the money you will spend on any glass avionics and put it into engine and fuel tank maintenance. If the prop does not turn none of the other stuff matters........

I don't think anyone is advocating letting you engine maintenance go for the sake of a GPS

GTN is anything but stupid, is it necessary no, but it's nice to have...you know what you don't need, is an airplane! The airplane is a luxury and any money you spend on it is waste. Personally I enjoy the modern equipment, makes it a bit safer in my opinion and you won't see me complaining about it, or discouraging anybody else, I say go for, upgrade it then fly the wings off!

[Jim Peace]

Really? Does your tablet have radios? Does it do VOR navigation? Does it monitor engine performance or fuel flow?

Tablets are great but comparing a full panel to a tablet is comparing apples and oranges

My plane has radios/IFR GPS....My plane has VOR nav and an KN64....My plane has been flying over 50 years without a fuel flow monitor and just an EGT and a CHT OIL P etc.  Could I be safer if I get a 900 engine monitor?  I guess so,,,,but it would be even safer to replace the engine after every flight......good idea

 

I understand none of this including the plane is needed for most people but spending north of 20k on a GTN etc with install when a 500 dollar iPad keeps you safer with a better display is just mind boggling for a single engine airplane.  These are go carts with wings, not multi engine jets crossing the ocean for hire and going to where the boogie man lives........

 

You can't even find most single engine flyers on here with recent flight aware activity.  Just VFR strolls around town.....Do you need a GTN to fly VFR  to destinations that you can see from your rooftop?