Going Over the Tops?

[Piloto]

In many instances you are faced with decision to either go over top of the clouds or deviate around, The problem is that you are not certain if the clouds ahead are above your altitude and you may take an unnecessary 45deg deviation. To accurately determine if the clouds ahead are below or above my altitude I use this sight level scope ($17). Simply line up the bubble with the scope horizon line. If the clouds are above the line then clouds are above your altitude. You can get it Amazon.com

[Wakeup]

Cool!! I definetly need this since I can't fly in the clouds I think it's also difficult to determine height of mountains too so I usually go way high just to be safe. All of this is sad but true Troy

[midlifeflyer]

Troy, in both cases, if you can see past the tops over the tops, you are above them. Mountain flying 101.

[Marauder]

Funny this topic should come up. I was VFR yesterday and returning home. There was a scattered layer and the ride below was really turbulent. I decided I wanted to climb on top. So here was the sequence.

Picture 1: I'm climbing through 7k and debating if I will clear this layer at 8,500. What do you think?

Picture 2: Nope. 8,500 won't do it, at least for cloud clearance.

Picture 3: at 10,500. The tops of the clouds were averaging 8,000. Here is what it looks like at the higher altitude.

[bonal]

Almost looks like the tops were rising as you were climbing it always looks so nice on top. A lot of our trips put us over the marine layer and I just love the beauty and the smoothness of the air when we are above the fog.

[Mooneymite]

.

 

I've seen the "lock level" similar to Jose's used on the airline, but in all honesty, with a little practice, the "bug on the windshield" technique works every bit as well.

 

(At our incredible Mooney speeds, coriolis will be shifting the level bubble so far to the side as to be out of view....  )

[bnicolette]

Didn't Sporty's come out with a cloud topper app for use with the iPad/iPhone?  I can remember seeing those sight levels in Sporty's catalogs for as long as I can remember.  "will I be in that cloud" was the tag line.  

[Marauder]

Almost looks like the tops were rising as you were climbing it always looks so nice on top. A lot of our trips put us over the marine layer and I just love the beauty and the smoothness of the air when we are above the fog.

The area where these pictures was taken was fairly hilly and the clouds were definitely higher than 50 miles further away. I could see the clouds were dropping off as I was getting closer to home.

[DS1980]

But it doesn't show you how far above or below the clouds are in relation to you correct? Just being clear is not legal.

[Mooneymite]

But it doesn't show you how far above or below the clouds are in relation to you correct? Just being clear is not legal.

 

Simple:  use "calibrated bugs" on the windshield!  

[Wakeup]

A question for all you IFR pilots?? Can you descend thru a cloud while flying VFR or do you have to file an IFR flight plan to go thru clouds. Last month I was flying VFR and the cloud layer kept getting higher and higher. I ended up leveling off at 11,000 feet and was stuck on top for about an hour. I was scared to death for two reasons. That's the highest I have ever flown and would I ever see an opening to get down. It was very pretty and calm but wish I was IFR trained and had more experience in similar situations. Troy

[PMcClure]

I think if you are on top and cannot see the ground, you are technically in IMC. 

[Mooneymite]

Can you descend thru a cloud while flying VFR or do you have to file an IFR flight plan to go thru clouds.

 

Sure, you can fly through a cloud while flying VFR, but it's illegal unless you can maintain the necessary visibility.  In other words, a " very thin" cloud (mist) that you can see through is okay.

 

Anytime you fly into a cloud, your expectation should be that a B-777 on an IFR clearance will be inside it.

[aviatoreb]

A question for all you IFR pilots?? Can you descend thru a cloud while flying VFR or do you have to file an IFR flight plan to go thru clouds. Last month I was flying VFR and the cloud layer kept getting higher and higher. I ended up leveling off at 11,000 feet and was stuck on top for about an hour. I was scared to death for two reasons. That's the highest I have ever flown and would I ever see an opening to get down. It was very pretty and calm but wish I was IFR trained and had more experience in similar situations. Troy

 

You are not allowed penetrate the cloud even if you are IFR certified.  But if you find yourself on top and needing to go down (or through) you can request a "pop up" IFR clearance. Then if granted (and it almost always is I expect - it always has in my brief experience), then you are now on an IFR flight plan and ATC will direct you to where you need to go including down.

[Marauder]

A question for all you IFR pilots?? Can you descend thru a cloud while flying VFR or do you have to file an IFR flight plan to go thru clouds. Last month I was flying VFR and the cloud layer kept getting higher and higher. I ended up leveling off at 11,000 feet and was stuck on top for about an hour. I was scared to death for two reasons. That's the highest I have ever flown and would I ever see an opening to get down. It was very pretty and calm but wish I was IFR trained and had more experience in similar situations. Troy

If the deck I showed in my pictures turned out to be solid further south, I would have asked for a clearance through the clouds with the intent on canceling when I was VFR again. I have an ADS-B in solution and knew the weather further south was reporting clear.

Troy -- getting stuck up on top can ruin your day. You may find yourself in a situation where you need to find a hole and circle down through it. Unless you know how low the clouds go, you could be in for a surprise. In some areas, the cloud deck can be low enough for mountain obscurations (even on the east coast where the hills are no where as large as out west). I have also have flown IFR on top of a cloud deck in VFR conditions and was surprised when my let down through the clouds took me into heavy haze and lousy VFR conditions.

I know you are working towards getting your rating. Once you get it, it will open up more utility of the plane. The best part of the IFR rating for me was the amount of precision it taught me. I know my "numbers" and it feels good to know that a particular power setting will net a certain speed that can be changed by a known amount by dropping gear or changing power again. It is a fun rating.

[Wakeup]

Thanks for all the responses and I am looking forward to learning more and being a safer pilot. I have never witnessed a layer of clouds with no end in sight. I was following my ADS-B information and my destination had broken clouds but kept thinking if something happens to my engine .. I am in BIG trouble because I am not IFR rated. Just to make sure everyone knows... I would never fly through a cloud without an IFR rating. I seem to recall it only takes a VFR pilot around 90 seconds to die in a cloud. My normal flight is 6,000 feet with no clouds. I can understand how things quickly turn into a mess if you are not prepared. Thanks. Troy

[carusoam]

VFR over the clouds is cool.

Having knowledge that there are no clouds at the other end is cooler.

Flying over clouds not knowing what's at the other end is so uncool they named a maneuver for it.

It is called the U-turn.

If you feel doing a U-turn is uncool, having the clouds close under you is even less cool.

If this does happen. 121.5 is the frequency to use, follow your training...

Plan A: get IR

Plan B: don't go far over clouds without being able to come back.

Plan C: get trained with a sight limiting device. If you are unable to fly via your instruments, your risk level has taken a giant uncontrolled leap!

JFK Jr. Reminds us of how easy it is to get over challenged by the stress of IFR conditions...

That's my experience, yours may be different...

Best regards,

-a-

[Piloto]

Marauder

 

On your first picture I noticed something that looks like multiple horns. I guess it is a prop effect. Surprised me how well symmetrical and the shadow casting over the cowling. I also noticed that the prop blade appear to be in feather mode. What camera did you use?

 

For the digital camera experts; is there any way of getting rid of this effect? I never had it with my old 35mm camera or the old 8mm video camera.

 

José

[chrisk]

A question for all you IFR pilots?? Can you descend thru a cloud while flying VFR or do you have to file an IFR flight plan to go thru clouds. Last month I was flying VFR and the cloud layer kept getting higher and higher. I ended up leveling off at 11,000 feet and was stuck on top for about an hour. I was scared to death for two reasons. That's the highest I have ever flown and would I ever see an opening to get down. It was very pretty and calm but wish I was IFR trained and had more experience in similar situations. Troy

11,000 is nothing to be concerned with. I've been higher in a car. Oxygen requirements start at 12,500. Unless you are in class G, you need to be on an IFR flight plan to enter a cloud, and you need an IR no matter what. And there is not much class G above 1200 agl, but there is some out west.

You should be very careful flying over the top. As a vfr pilot, I never did it (very broken only, never solid). It was to big a risk of getting trapped. Having said that, if trapped above, call and ask for help. And if low on fuel, do what needs to be done (your going down anyway. The choice is with or with out power). I will not give advice on how to do that. My advice is to start on your IR.

[Wakeup]

I wasn't concerned about O2 at 11,000 feet. It was just my first time to fly that high and it seemed like the clouds had no ending and I'm in an old M20B. I had plenty of gas so I knew I would find an opening. Not a position I would like to be in again but the view was priceless. Troy

[Marauder]

Marauder On your first picture I noticed something that looks like multiple horns. I guess it is a prop effect. Surprised me how well symmetrical and the shadow casting over the cowling. I also noticed that the prop blade appear to be in feather mode. What camera did you use? For the digital camera experts; is there any way of getting rid of this effect? I never had it with my old 35mm camera or the old 8mm video camera. José

Prop effect as it was described to me is the result of the electronic shutter mechanism as opposed to the mechanical ones found on older mechanical cameras. What you need is a neutral density lense that can neutralize the effect. A 1.2 or higher lense will fix the majority of the effects. It slows down the light to the shutter mechanism on these cameras. Depending on which camera you are using, there are different ways to attach them. This picture was taken with my iPhone 5 without a filter. Sure makes for a strange effect, didn't it?

[sreid]

I think if you are on top and cannot see the ground, you are technically in IMC.

This is incorrect.

[midlifeflyer]

 

For the digital camera experts; is there any way of getting rid of this effect? I never had it with my old 35mm camera or the old 8mm video camera.

 

José

Hardly an expert since I'm learning this myself, but unless your camera is sophisticated enough to correct for this (and you know how to use those settings) for the simple/GoPro crowd, the solution seems to be a neutral density filter that reduces light entering the camera by about 4 f-stops. It apparently causes the camera to compensate by slowing down, causing the series of prop "stop actions" to change to a less intrusive blur.

[Hank]

Our Sony digital cameras don't have this problem. Mine's a year old, the wife's is three or four, simple point-and-shoot pocket cameras. My Samsung phone is also immune. It's mostly the iproducts from iApple. Just kick back, drink the Kool Aid and enjoy the funny effects that appear. Or go droid. 

[wishboneash]

I think if you are on top and cannot see the ground, you are technically in IMC. 

 

Not if you can visually maintain control of the aircraft above the clouds as in VFR conditions on top. If you lose the horizon or you have sloping layers that confuse you and have to rely on the instruments then you are in IMC.