Danb Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) Byron, that blows, now I'm worried that I'm changing both at the same time, maybe I should have done one now and wait a few months to do the other, your the expert did I screw up, I already sent my cores in, I questioned the shop on this and he talked me into it, it's not a MSC it's where I landed and truly have no clue. Edited October 11, 2015 by Danb
garytex Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 I also think Byron also has it right that the Bendix mags are more robust. btw, I may end up in a 201, are the single drive mags as scary as the crowd running away from them would indicate?
KSMooniac Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 I also think Byron also has it right that the Bendix mags are more robust.btw, I may end up in a 201, are the single drive mags as scary as the crowd running away from them would indicate? No. Just adhere to the 500 hr inspection interval and use an expert. Way better than a pair of slicks. (Funny, my phone typed sucks when I tried to Swype slicks! Even it knows.) Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk 1
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) I don't think so, provided you use a mag shop that are experts with these mags, not a factory but a small shop that knows these things intimately. I've heard the guy Don Maxwell uses may be the best in the country. Also follow very strict rules with not reusing star washers, not loosening the breaker point can screw,using the newest design of clamps, careful attention to runup mag drop, and frequent checks the mag is not loose. One of the biggest problems right now is the insane cost to service them. QAA gets 1650-1750 to overhaul exchange them. That's nearly 4$ an hour just in magneto time. I have no idea what a small shop 500 hour cost is. This is all just one persons opinion, and I'm not an A&P, just a supervised shop rat and pilot Edited October 11, 2015 by jetdriven 1
DXB Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 So my mags (Bendix) will be close to 500 at annual in a couple months. IRAN or overhaul? Recently saw a Mike Busch webinar where he favored the former. Any accessory shop in the Northeast that is highly trusted for this?
Shadrach Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) My Slick mags have reached the 500 hour mark. What do you all do, new mags or do the inspection? My understanding is there is no rebuild option for Slicks? If so, why do all the retailers have a $300 core charge when you buy new??? If you go with the inspection, any recommendations on a provider of the inspection? Thanks again! Slicks can be IRAN'd. I do not believe they are cost effective to overhaul. Byron's accounts match much of what I've heard around our neck of the woods recently, but I can't speak from my own experience. If I had the option I would always choose Bendix. Only one failure in 2997hrs according to our logs. That was a bad coil that shorted to the case. Thankfully, I was over water when it happened. If I were you, I'd run the slicks until one needed to be replaced, then I'd "upgrade" to Bendix. Edited October 11, 2015 by Shadrach
KSMooniac Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Don's guy is less than half that QAA price and far more competent. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1
ArtVandelay Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 I ran my slicks to 1100 hrs, then had the 500hr inspection. Mine are from 1996, I believe slicks (like lycoming) had quality problems post 2000. If they are older and have no issues I would just do the 500 hr IRAN, cost was just around $200 for 2 mags. If I had problems and had to buy new I would consider switching. But I think if you switch you will pay full price, no credit for the core.
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 CMI takes Slicks for cores. You still have to buy a harness.
mike_elliott Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Thanx, Gary mine were inspected and taken apart with new washers etc.,at 477 hrs by Dmax They passed the mag check on the ground and 15 minutes later I checked them and the left on went into complete failure thank goodness we have two of them. Just think if we got that kind of SH7tty time out of our Chevy, BMW (Insert your favorite car here) ignition systems. I hope we can get some decent approved ignition systems for these tractor engines before too many more people suffer catastrophic failures.
Seed3r Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 What about surefly mag replacement, did you guys see them ? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Shadrach Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) What about surefly mag replacement, did you guys see them? They're not certified yet. I would like to see a more technical presentation. I'm hesitant to put any new tech in my plane without understanding where and why it is advanced, Edited October 11, 2015 by Shadrach
DaV8or Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Posted October 11, 2015 Slicks can be IRAN'd. I do not believe they are cost effective to overhaul. Byron's accounts match much of what I've heard around our neck of the woods recently, but I can't speak from my own experience. If I had the option I would always choose Bendix. Only one failure in 2997hrs according to our logs. That was a bad coil that shorted to the case. Thankfully, I was over water when it happened. If I were you, I'd run the slicks until one needed to be replaced, then I'd "upgrade" to Bendix. That's what I did. I sent them out to Aircraft Magneto Service and they IRANed them. They found pretty much nothing really wrong with them and only replaced some wear related items because they had them open and were in there. They did not appear to be malfunctioning, or about to malfunction in any way. I took them off the plane and also put them back on myself. Having done so, I have no idea how in the world the Bendix mags even fit!! The Slicks are a tight pain in the ass to get in and out, so the bigger Bendix must really be a nightmare.
DaV8or Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Posted October 11, 2015 What about surefly mag replacement, did you guys see them ? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk There are lots and lots of uncertified ignition options, but for certified, not so many. All electronic ignition systems claim higher reliability, but in the experimental aircraft community, this has not been prove to be the case. Experimentals have a higher rate of engine failures and a lot of those are ignition related. Last month we had an RV-8 crash near our home field and from the preliminary NTSB report, it is exactly this. Electronic ignition failure for at this time, unknown reasons. He had the LASAR system. A beautiful labor of love airplane that is pretty much a write off now. Fortunately he and his passenger were unharmed in the wreck, but they are lucky to be alive. The airplane cartwheeled in a field and ended up inverted. They couldn't get the canopy open. They said it took 20 minutes of hammering to break their way out and help didn't arrive until 10 minutes after they got themselves out. Had the plane caught fire... well.. you know. Something to think about as we replace our windows in our Mooneys with 1/4" glass. You might not be able to get out of an inverted Mooney either. How long does it take to get through those windows?? Anyhow, back on topic, to my knowledge nobody has been able to build an electronic ignition system that can match the reliability of our old tractor magnetos. Just a quick NTSB study, or search of the VAF forums will illustrate this.
Shadrach Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) I took them off the plane and also put them back on myself. Having done so, I have no idea how in the world the Bendix mags even fit!! The Slicks are a tight pain in the ass to get in and out, so the bigger Bendix must really be a nightmare. The Bendix mags are a bit of a pain to R&R. IIRC, the pax side is worse because of how the mag blast tube is oriented on the back of the baffle. If I had to guess, I would say it takes about an hour and a half to R&R each side once you're familiar with the process. Edited October 11, 2015 by Shadrach
carusoam Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) Side notes that come to mind after reading this far down the thread... Side note 1: In the event of an inverted Mooney, consider the baggage door as a possible exit. Or would that not be enough of an opening when inverted? Side note 2: For Mike E., some of us have put up with crappy ignition systems in cars for way too long as well. The early 90's electronic ignition for Corvettes, Camaros, and my favorite Firebird have their LT1’s distributor on the front of the engine block. It gets swapped out every 50K miles. The water pump needs to be removed to get to the worn rotor and cap. The high tech device has an optical encoder that gets dirty with the dust from the wearing rotor and electrical posts that the rotor spins past. When the water pump wears, it pours coolant out a weep hole onto the high voltage ignition device. For every day use, this could be required every two years or so. Expensive parts, labor and down time to get it done. There have been improvements to automotive ignition systems that include placing individual coils on the spark plugs. This keeps the high voltage challenges to a minimum. The high voltage is only generated close to where it is used. At the spark plug! Maintaining CHTs would take on additional importance to the health of all those coils. This mode of isolating the high voltage to the plug could probably help for those engines that need to use pressurized magnetos. Side note 3: I have not experienced a Mooney magneto failure. But, I know a simple mag failure can cause an ordinary pilot to consider taking some extraordinary risks. Don't fly a school's C152 with a non firing spark plug. It may be worse than a dirty plug. Ah, the memories... Best regards, -a- Edited October 11, 2015 by carusoam 1
carusoam Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Oops, ran out of space to finish the editing... side note 4: the SureFly electronic ignition uses a 12/24 volt wire. I didn't hear in the presentation if there was a back-up operational capability or if there is any value to having one SF ignition system to go with a traditional mag. I have experienced a complete generator failure in my old M20C in VMC. It became noticeable as the radios began to flicker. Flying home for the next 50 miles was a non-event. Losing the ignition system with the generator would make it a challenge... Best regards, -a-
DaV8or Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Posted October 11, 2015 Oops, ran out of space to finish the editing... side note 4: the SureFly electronic ignition uses a 12/24 volt wire. I didn't hear in the presentation if there was a back-up operational capability or if there is any value to having one SF ignition system to go with a traditional mag. I have experienced a complete generator failure in my old M20C in VMC. It became noticeable as the radios began to flicker. Flying home for the next 50 miles was a non-event. Losing the ignition system with the generator would make it a challenge... Best regards, -a- I couldn't find any information on their product including their website. It looks to me that they are copying the P-Mag design in which each ignition generates it's own power rather than rely on ship power. I'm not sure what the 12v/24v wire is for. Could very well be a weak point. The problems with electronic ignition in airplanes so far is heat/temperature extremes and vibration. These are things electronics really don't like and aren't as bad in a car. Magnetos are much more robust in this case. 1
Andy95W Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 The Bendix mags are a bit of a pain to R&R. IIRC, the pax side is worse because of how the mag blast tube is oriented on the back of the baffle. If I had to guess, I would say it takes about an hour and a half to R&R each side once you're familiar with the process. The real b!t€h on a short body is the pilot side. You have to remove the battery box to get at the left magneto. The Bendix mags are marginally bigger, but not significantly and I sure wouldn't want the alternative.
Hank Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 I sent my left mag back to the Kelly factory for $491 and some change. Removal wasn't that bad, although I did take the cooling tube off of the doghouse and the top off the battery box. Then I drove to town and bought a 6" extension for my ratchet to reach the bottom clamp. Only required minor swearing and about an hour's work, not counting the trip to the auto parts store and the drive through window. the next challenge was wiggling it out. That's when I discovered I needed to take the cap off first, I had to out the mag back on then remove it again. Ten or fifteen minutes worth of wiggling around yielded a handheld magneto.
Andy95W Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 You're a better man than I. I've been pulling battery boxes for so long I don't think I could get the left mag out otherwise.
Hank Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 It was my first mag removal, and I didn't want to mess with the battery box. Thought about it, looked at it, changed my mind. It was a Saturday morning, getting warmer, and I wanted the durn thing off before I had a heat stroke. Alabama, August and one fan in the hangar are not good combinations.
Danb Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 I checked with the mechanic where I got stuck and he sent the mags to Quality Aircraft Accessories, is this one of the recommended shops. I assume I'll know in a couple days what was wrong?
Danb Posted October 20, 2015 Report Posted October 20, 2015 Well finally got my mags back and the engine runs real smooth, started on first blade. I noticed flying back home there may be some whine in the radios, not sure if this is from the mags or my imagination, any advice re.this would be appreciated. My mind was at first just thinking is this baby going to konck out?
Shadrach Posted October 21, 2015 Report Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Well finally got my mags back and the engine runs real smooth, started on first blade. I noticed flying back home there may be some whine in the radios, not sure if this is from the mags or my imagination, any advice re.this would be appreciated. My mind was at first just thinking is this baby going to konck out? Whine is often caused by alternators or regulators. Does it change under different current loads at a constant RPM? Set the engine for 1300rpm and then begin bringing electronics on line (you could also do this in flight). If the pitch changes, it's likely the regulator. It's possible it's a mag; does it go away if you run it on one or the other mags? Edited October 21, 2015 by Shadrach
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