Acclaims..pilots

[Danb]

I looked at the Controller and there are 3 Acclaim's for sale  2 in the USA...when reading the spec's..both in the USA have already had prop strike's..My first thought is that Mooney specific training comes with the new planes.  It did with mine and who the hell is teaching these guys!!!!

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Not saying all...but many...of the distinguished gentleman I see flying some of these high performance aircraft seem to have more money than skill.

[flyboy0681]

What I know about Acclaim's could fit on the head of a pin, but could it be its handling characteristics and ground clearance?

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I'll bet that if you take the time to surf all the Mooney ads on Controller you'll find a few prop strikes in many of the models. I've read about prop strikes on this board that were in F's, J's, etc. Not unique to Acclaims.

 

As for me, I've managed to taxi a K for 11 years without a strike, and an Acclaim for almost 3. The Acclaim actually feels like it has more prop clearance because of the 3-blade and because it sits tail-low, but my understanding from other posts I've seen here is that it doesn't.

 

Before I bought my first Mooney I rented a friend's Socata Trinidad for years. It had tall, forgiving trailing link landing gear. Never thought about prop strikes when taxiing. But in Mooneys it's always on my mind, and I taxi with extreme caution.

[flyboy0681]

 But in Mooneys it's always on my mind, and I taxi with extreme caution.

 

This is always a major concern of mine and I have written about it here many times. It forces me to be vigilant but....

[AndyFromCB]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love my Mooney but if you Mooney wants to have a business case, they need to redesign the landing gear and up the gross weight. Vs drivers of other aircraft, mooney pilots have to be "super" pilots on landing. It is not a forgiving platform at all. It does not forgive excess speed (easy to do poping out at minimums), it does not forgive flare mistakes (too high or too low), it bounces easily and does not recover with anywhere as much ease as piper, beech or cessna products and it does not forgive any side loading during crosswind landings. You must fly the damn thing all the way until taxi speeds. Landed yesterday at Yankton, SD with 19knot crosswind component without any issues and then forgot to "fly it" for a second right after landing because I have not flown the airplane for 2 months and forgot how touchy it is. Started heading directly towards grass. It's definitely less of a weekend warrior aircraft than others.

[DS1980]

Started heading directly towards grass. It's definitely less of a weekend warrior aircraft than others.

Does the M have the problems with the steering that causes the "8 second ride"?

I took one of these rides in a C, and I can tell you I've never felt more helpless.

[Danb]

Ds. I have no clue what a 8 second ride is...I've had 2 J models an currently have an M...we all need to be diligent in our approach to landing speed, all things happen good when our speeds are spot on..

[Piloto]

The longer Mooneys like the M20TN have a heavier nose. When you come for landing you have to trim it to no more than 75 kts and 70kts on short final. Otherwise you will need to pull hard on the yoke during the flare. I just push the trim switch up during the flare to keep the nose up without excessive pull on the voke. Another option is to raise the flaps when close to the ground. Some of the pilots that have done the prop strike is because they have trained on planes with no trim switch.

 

José 

[ArtVandelay]

The longer Mooneys like the M20TN have a heavier nose. When you come for landing you have to trim it to no more than 75 kts and 70kts on short final. Otherwise you will need to pull hard on the yoke during the flare. I just push the trim switch up during the flare to keep the nose up without excessive pull on the voke. Another option is to raise the flaps when close to the ground. Some of the pilots that have done the prop strike is because they have trained on planes with no trim switch.

I do that too, the problem with it is if you do T&Gs or a miss approach, you'll need to trim back to takeoff or you'll have your hands full.

[carusoam]

The 8 sec ride is a reference to having worn steering gear (equipment) that can lead to a TX styled wild ride. (Bull riding is an eight second event, popular in TX at what is called the rodeo. Stay on for eight seconds, then get off gracefully)

It is the title of an article on what is needed to solve the well known challenge for the wear found in older birds...

Wether it applies to newer birds, only time will tell...

I'm not super familiar with the differences in nose gear over the years.

Best regards,

-a-

[WardHolbrook]

Getting checked out in an Acclaim (or any other aircraft for that matter) is simple enough. But a simple checkout may or may not be enough for a lot of guys new to aircraft of that performance level. Simple systems training and a few times around the pattern may be adequate for guys stepping down to something of the Acclaim's performance level, but for guys stepping up it's probably going to take a bit more. You can now readily fly up in the flight levels - are your instrument and weather skills up to snuff with the other pilots that frequent that part of the atmosphere? Have you ever been to an altitude chamber? There's a lot physiological stuff you really ought to know about and experience if you're going to play around up there. And the list goes on...

 

There's probably nothing more dangerous than a "low performance" pilot flying a high performance airplane and a Mooney Acclaim is as about as high performance as you can get in a single-engine piston powered airplane. A FIKI equipped Acclaim is about as capable as any light airplane out there and it is arguably more challenging to fly than a turboprop single. Being safe in one requires that you bring more to the table up front and that you get proper recurrent training as well. 

[Piloto]

I do that too, the problem with it is if you do T&Gs or a miss approach, you'll need to trim back to takeoff or you'll have your hands full.

Better than a prop strike. Unlike the M20J the M20TN nose can be pushed down easier with the yoke. The elevator surface area is small when compared with the stabilator area, this is why you need to use the trim. On some planes the whole stabilator is moved by the yoke while the trim wheel just move a trim tab attached to the stabilator.

 

Another factor is how you come loaded to the landing. If you have a lot heavy baggage  the nose will come up easier at same trim setting than by yourself onboard only. This could have been a factor when on the check ride you are told to trim to an specfic setting rather than a nose attitude.

 

José  

[Danb]

Ward, spot on, when I transitioned to my Bravo Gx Mooney paid for 3 days of training of which I used and needed, I already had 2500 hours in J models, on final in these long bodies you just have to keep trimming and be patient.. To this day I here the dude yelling to keep me on the trim switch and trim wheel. I actually think it lands easier than my J as long as it's trimmed and slightly nose up to the ground.

[WardHolbrook]

Ward, spot on, when I transitioned to my Bravo Gx Mooney paid for 3 days of training of which I used and needed, I already had 2500 hours in J models, on final in these long bodies you just have to keep trimming and be patient.. To this day I here the dude yelling to keep me on the trim switch and trim wheel. I actually think it lands easier than my J as long as it's trimmed and slightly nose up to the ground.

There is a difference between being legal and being proficient - one doe not equate to the other. For most guys, a little bit of ground school and an hour in the airplane might be enough to make them legal, but that together with a flight review every couple of years isn't going to hack it when it comes to proficiency. If it's been more than 1 year since you last flew with a CFII grab one and go knock some rust off - both in the pattern and under the hood. If you haven't taken an extreme unusual attitude/basic aerobatics course, find a school nearby and go do it. Even stuff like glider training will provide you with skill that will transfer directly over to your powered flying. This stuff is not all that expensive expensive and a little goes a very long way towards improving your basic stick and rudder skills. If you've never been to an altitude chamber go. The courses are free (at least I think they still are) but the education you will get will serve you well up at altitude. You don't have to do this stuff all at once, but do something every 6 months or so.   

[WardHolbrook]

Ds. I have no clue what a 8 second ride is...I've had 2 J models an currently have an M...we all need to be diligent in our approach to landing speed, all things happen good when our speeds are spot on..

http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/M20-202%20-%20Eight-Second%20Ride/EIGHT_SECOND_RIDE.HTM

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Getting checked out in an Acclaim (or any other aircraft for that matter) is simple enough. But a simple checkout may or may not be enough for a lot of guys new to aircraft of that performance level. Simple systems training and a few times around the pattern may be adequate for guys stepping down to something of the Acclaim's performance level, but for guys stepping up it's probably going to take a bit more. You can now readily fly up in the flight levels - are your instrument and weather skills up to snuff with the other pilots that frequent that part of the atmosphere? Have you ever been to an altitude chamber? There's a lot physiological stuff you really ought to know about and experience if you're going to play around up there. And the list goes on...

 

There's probably nothing more dangerous than a "low performance" pilot flying a high performance airplane and a Mooney Acclaim is as about as high performance as you can get in a single-engine piston powered airplane. A FIKI equipped Acclaim is about as capable as any light airplane out there and it is arguably more challenging to fly than a turboprop single. Being safe in one requires that you bring more to the table up front and that you get proper recurrent training as well. 

 

I couldn't agree more. When I bought my Encore in 2000 it was my first turbo and my first opportunity to operate in the flight levels. I had plenty of IFR and high-performance/complex experience down low, but had never flown higher than 13,000'. I took this very seriously and hired an instructor to fly the plane with me back home from Minneapolis (where I bought it) to Napa, CA. We flew 12 hours in 3 legs exclusively in the flight levels, much of it in IMC. We used the TKS in real icing conditions. We flew one leg at night. It was rigorous and very educational. That experience, coupled with subsequent flights and the BFR's I received from Don Kaye when I lived in the Bay Area, really solidified my abilities as a high-altitude Mooney pilot.

 

After 11 years flying the Encore up high in the Western U.S., transitioning to the Acclaim was pretty straightforward. Nevertheless, I hired my CFII here in Denver to fly 10 hours of transition training with me. My insurance company didn't require it, but I did. Although I had installed a G500 in the Encore a year before, transitioning to the G1000 and GFC700 still required appreciable effort. Flying coupled approaches was now a breeze, but it required a few hours of practice before I could make the G1000 do my bidding without much thought or hesitation. With a plane that screams along like the Acclaim, staying ahead of it is more critical than ever.

 

The toughest adjustment for me was the landings. The Acclaim is heavier on the controls, heavier in the nose, and that 3-bladed prop creates a lot of drag. I bounced 3 or 4 landings pretty bad before I got the hang of it. Fortunately I never dug the prop, but I can see how it could have happened.

[Danb]

Ward, very true I go to at least a three day program every yr and a half plus practice, I never have been a glider seems like a good idea it's seems that the dude who landed in the New York river was an expert glider..good stuff

[WardHolbrook]

I were King of the world I would make it a requirement for all beginning pilots to get a few hours of taildragger time – it teaches you what your feet are for. (Something a lot of pilots never really learn.) Thirty years ago the Chief Pilot at Western Airlines told me that he could tell by the way a pilot flew the Boeing 727 whether on not he had taildragger time. His inference was that pilots with taildragger experience did a noticeably better job in the Boeing. In the thousands of hours I've logged since then I've flown with countless other pilots and I've found no reason to disagree with the chief pilot's statement.

 

If I were King I would also require all pilots to have some glider experience prior to solo as well. The "feel" that you develop as you learn to fly the glider will help you in all of the fixed-wing flying that you do from then on. The confidence that you develop in the ability to handle the inevitable engine failure will be in valuable. (Engine? I don’t need no stinking engine!) Finally, I would also require spin training prior to solo and extreme upset recovery/basic aerobatic training prior to any checkride. 

Flying a taildragger teaches you what your feet are for; flying a glider reenforces that and teaches you what the other flight controls do and what mother nature thinks about about flying machines; spin training will help keep you from killing yourself; ditto for the aerobatic training. (Just let ATC vector you in a little too close behind that airliner on approach and knowing to push rather than instinctively pulling could save your bacon.)

 

When it comes to this type of training, I am a fan of anything that forces you to learn skills that will make you a more proficient airman – besides,  they're a heck of a lot of fun. Just make sure that you get quality instruction. Here are some links…

 

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/

 

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly

 

None of this stuff is all that expensive, the aerobatic/tailwheel training can usually can be counted as a BFR and an add-on glider rating is one of the easiest ratings a power pilot can get. It's all a lot of fun and the skills you develop will transfer to any fixed-wing flying you do in the future. 

[flaflyer]

Snapped a rod bolt 5,000 ft over Rush City MN in 1991 , couple seconds later the rod came through the side of the case and stopped the prop so hard it fractured the exhaust system.   Nice 88" prop standing perfectly straight up and down on my old C-180 was a little distracting but otherwise the evaluation, the planning and even the landing was pretty much unhurried and stressless.  I credit that to a couple hundred glider landings.  If you fly around with piston engines long enough, you are going to get the opportunity to land without power.  When that happens, I don't think there is experience more useful than gliders.

 

By the way, I'm new to the Mooney world and to your space.  Finding it very informative.  Thanks.

[aviatoreb]

I were King of the world I would make it a requirement for all beginning pilots to get a few hours of taildragger time – it teaches you what your feet are for. (Something a lot of pilots never really learn.) Thirty years ago the Chief Pilot at Western Airlines told me that he could tell by the way a pilot flew the Boeing 727 whether on not he had taildragger time. His inference was that pilots with taildragger experience did a noticeably better job in the Boeing. In the thousands of hours I've logged since then I've flown with countless other pilots and I've found no reason to disagree with the chief pilot's statement.

 

If I were King I would also require all pilots to have some glider experience prior to solo as well. The "feel" that you develop as you learn to fly the glider will help you in all of the fixed-wing flying that you do from then on. The confidence that you develop in the ability to handle the inevitable engine failure will be in valuable. (Engine? I don’t need no stinking engine!) Finally, I would also require spin training prior to solo and extreme upset recovery/basic aerobatic training prior to any checkride. 

Flying a taildragger teaches you what your feet are for; flying a glider reenforces that and teaches you what the other flight controls do and what mother nature thinks about about flying machines; spin training will help keep you from killing yourself; ditto for the aerobatic training. (Just let ATC vector you in a little too close behind that airliner on approach and knowing to push rather than instinctively pulling could save your bacon.)

 

When it comes to this type of training, I am a fan of anything that forces you to learn skills that will make you a more proficient airman – besides,  they're a heck of a lot of fun. Just make sure that you get quality instruction. Here are some links…

 

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/

 

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly

 

None of this stuff is all that expensive, the aerobatic/tailwheel training can usually can be counted as a BFR and an add-on glider rating is one of the easiest ratings a power pilot can get. It's all a lot of fun and the skills you develop will transfer to any fixed-wing flying you do in the future. 

 

Points well taken Ward.  As a professional educator, I can only point out that a person can't do everything first.  It is a classic pedagogical issue as to which many things need to be learned before the next many things.  There is plenty of time to keep learning after solo.

 

I have had some glider time, and I would do more if only there were a club near me!  Gliding is a difficult activity to do solo.  It is a group activity.

 

You have motivated me to get off my duff and do a tail dragger next.  Right now I am off my duff working on my commercial just because.

[Piloto]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love my Mooney but if you Mooney wants to have a business case, they need to redesign the landing gear and up the gross weight. Vs drivers of other aircraft, mooney pilots have to be "super" pilots on landing. It is not a forgiving platform at all. It does not forgive excess speed (easy to do poping out at minimums), it does not forgive flare mistakes (too high or too low), it bounces easily and does not recover with anywhere as much ease as piper, beech or cessna products and it does not forgive any side loading during crosswind landings. You must fly the damn thing all the way until taxi speeds. Landed yesterday at Yankton, SD with 19knot crosswind component without any issues and then forgot to "fly it" for a second right after landing because I have not flown the airplane for 2 months and forgot how touchy it is. Started heading directly towards grass. It's definitely less of a weekend warrior aircraft than others.

You are right on. You have to be almost like a fighter pilot to avoid any mishaps. And yes, Mooney has to redesign the plane to be more forgiving. Someone that buys a $700K has no time for intensive training but to make money to pay for the plane. But when you are selling planes, specially new ones you do not want to bring training issues but a payment check. This is what has made the Cirrus so popular.

 

Are you going to keep a $700K plane because you were a few knots off and did a prop strike? Or need intensive recurrent pilot training. All M20TN buyers are business owners with no time or patience for this. This is why they made the business decision to get rid of it. At over $1M planes the owner pays a crew to get the training or charter a plane.

 

Can you imagine a car dealer trying to sell a $60K sport car that requires special driving skills or even knowlege how the engine works. The car dealer does not care about your driving skills but your credit. Can you imagine going thru a checklist to drive your car. When was the last time you personaly check the oil level or drain the fuel in your car?.

 

I think the overwhelming chinese population would rather buy a railroad car and attach it to the train at the train stations. Just imagine a new M20TN having a prop strike in the middle of China. How long would it take to have it fix and how much would it cost? Free access airspace is not enough, airplanes get refueled and maintained on the ground. You need a support infracstructure for refueling, maintenance and rental cars. After all a plane is no good without ground transportation. Boy I am glad I am Florida USA, best place to have a Mooney.

 

José

[aaronk25]

Anyone ever got slow landing and increased the flare any hit the tail tie down bracket on the runway? I don't have anytime in a long body, but from the looks if the longer tail might be eaiser to do?

[Cruiser]

The M20J is 24'8" in length. The M20R is 26'9" in length. Plus 2'1" overall however.

The M20J distance between the nose and main wheels is 5'11 9/16" The M20R distance between the nose and main wheels is 6'7 9/16". That's plus 8" on the long body. 

The M20J propeller is -35.50. The M20R propeller is -49.5" an additional 14" longer up front.

The M20J tail light strobe is at 215.82" On the long body the tail light strobe is at 227.82"  Exactly 12" further back.

The M20J main wheels are at 64.4" on the M20R the main wheels are at 64.4"  Exactly the same distance.

The reference datum is the same at the base of the windshield on both airframes. 

The M20J base weight center of gravity is 46.1"

The M20R base weight center of gravity is 43.8"

[Piloto]

Anyone ever got slow landing and increased the flare any hit the tail tie down bracket on the runway? I don't have anytime in a long body, but from the looks if the longer tail might be eaiser to do?

iiNormally the tail contact will happen on take off from a short field. .Specially when you have rear cago and low pressure in the tires