N33GG Posted March 29, 2014 Report Posted March 29, 2014 the title of this thread seems a bit strong. Was there intent ? If the MSC had wanted to kill you, you wouldn't be posting anything on MS.... Quote
Comatose Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Posted March 29, 2014 Yeah, the title is a bit strong, but if you look up the statistics, loss of vacuum in flight has a significantly non-trivial fatality rate. I was VFR, but not great VFR, with a weather system moving in later in the day. Its only a twelve mile hop between the two airports. But if the hose hadn't popped off immediately... Â Not nearly as bad as what Aaron went through. We train for loss of vacuum. We don't train for missing rivets!!! Quote
PTK Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 How's this for proof this is the work that Brian at Willmar personally did...This is circumstantial at best. Before you went bashing the gentleman and accusing him by name on a public forum that he is going to kill you or someone else, have you reached out to invite him to respond with his side of the argument? That important piece of the puzzle is missing. It may very we'll bolster your argument or it may not. Certainly without it you're just a complainer. Quote
M016576 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 Hello pot? Yes...? This is the kettle. YOU'RE BLACK! Doesn't look circumstantial to me: the post includes pictures of the maintenance malpractice, as well as a description of the event. What sort of proof do you need- an NTSB report about structural failure and fatalities? Maybe you could take your J to that shop/A&P and get the "proof" you seek. What does look circumstantial, though, is a back peddling post with no "proof" attempting to clarify some info about Camguard. By proof, I mean actual correspondence, not just name-dropping. Or whatever would pass for "truth" to you, because it seems to be a shifting target. Bold to proclaim that you carry the torch of truth and fact, and not offer any references yourself. Or you could be a good person, like 99% of the guys and gals here (I don't count myself in that 99%, btw, because I'm writing this post: but someone has to try to shut down this "quest for truth as seen by PTK"), and attempt to offer impartial insight, perhaps wait patiently or take it up privately if you have concerns with truthful behavior and posting, instead of questioning everyone's integrity right out of the gates. I hope most new people on this board read this, so they don't get the wrong impression of this website due to a few callous and abrasive posts about "truth." 1 Quote
PTK Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 ...as well as a description of the event...What sort of proof do you need... instead of questioning everyone's integrity right out of the gates... M016576, a description of the event according to whom? One side? If you're going to accuse someone on a public forum by name that they tried to kill you or are going to kill someone you owe it to them to notify them and allow them to present their side. If you slam someone and potentially hurt their livelihood at least give them the opportunity to respond. They deserve that much. Unless of course you intend to harm their livelihood. I think the accused deserves a chance to present his side. It's simple really. You agree? And if you're referring to my questioning Mr. Kollin's integrity re his camguard claims you have the wrong impression. I was responding to HIS post and very modestly I might add. He is the one coming "right out of the gates" as you put it with his brazen statement. You agree? And I do hope most new people on this board reading this will get the impression that some on here do care about accuracy of information and truth from perceived professionals and will not tolerate anything less. Manufacturers who know better but intentionally mislead should be met with questions and held accountable. The FTC and CM lawyers would have a field day with this camguard dictating another manufacturer's (CM) warranties! They wouldn't know where to begin! You agree? Quote
gregwatts Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 The title to this thread.....My MSC Tried To Kill Me...........is asinine! If the OP truly felt that the MSC intended his death, he should have gone straight to the local FSDO, called the police, and notified the NTSB! To come on to this forum and make such proclamations is absurd and irresponsible! If the OP allegations are correct, then the MSC should be shut down......however......the OP first had a responsibility to return to the MSC and notify them of his findings......and then if no resolution, share his experience with the public. The MSC should be given the opportunity to correct the issues and defend or explain the workmanship issues. Same in Aaron's case! I too have had issues come up over the years, but always gave the IA/AP the opportunity to redeem himself! Â Â Â My opinion only! 1 Quote
PTK Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 The title to this thread.....My MSC Tried To Kill Me...........is asinine! Ditto! Quote
aaronk25 Posted March 30, 2014 Report Posted March 30, 2014 Folks, to the MSC credit they paid a outside non-MSC to correct the work to the tune of about $11k, the problem with it is theses items were not all found prior to the "settlement" and created months of additional down time and the issues don't stop appearing. The window sealant issues was just discovered 3 months ago. The monetary amount is important but not as important as the additional down time created. Just paying a mechanic to fix the work that should have been fixed the first time doesn't compensate for loss or use or my time to deal with this which has been substantial. I posted the information because the title of the thread was aligned with what I experienced so it struck a nerve and stirred up some emotion, still not sure if it was the right decision as I try to be positive, most times. I would have went to the Feds but I was also informed I might also have some action brought against me as I operated the plane without a prop log book for 4 months while I waited for Willmar to "get around to giving it to me" as it was a new to me 0 SMOH prop that I bought from them but wasn't given a log book despite repeated emails until 4 months later. I've been told now that the Feds probably wouldn't have pursued any enforcement action against me. Also at the time we discovered these issues, I knew it wasn't right but it wasn't until sometime that I fully understood how deceitful the repairs were. My intent is just to make sure other mooney drivers are aware of my experience, even though it is on sided, which is true. I can even understand how a vacuum hose could get missed, were humans. What I still to this day have a hard time with is looking at the pictures trying and trying to put together any rational thought on how a mechanic could release a plane to a customer knowing what existed inside the wings....he without a doubt knew and this never could be confused with "I forgot too...." Sorry if I offended anyone, not my intent. Quote
M016576 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 I guess I'm too hardcore when it comes to aircraft maintenance, compared to some of you.  The OP and Aaron's experiences send chills right through me. Maybe it's because I've experienced some serious maintenance problems in my aircraft at work, maybe its just because I see my Mooney as a fun travelling and transportation machine that is *SAFE* or maybe it's because I've lost 2 friends in aircraft accidents in the last 12 months alone. I do not tolerate any sort of oversight in my personal aircraft maintenance. I understand that humans make mistakes... but how's this "for the other perspective": If you make your livelihood as a mechanic on an aircraft, you'd better be sure you don't make mistakes, or you should find another line of work. And if you own a business that works on aircraft, you should TRUST BUT VERIFY with your mechanics. If you find a mechanic that performs willful neglect, you should hammer him to the max extent practical.  Make no mistake about this: we are in a very unforgiving "hobby" (or profession, depending on who reads this). mistakes get people killed. BUT- you have TOTAL CONTROL over who works on your aircraft. DON'T ACCEPT MISTAKES.. it reinforces a shops behavior. Which only hurts all of us in the long run. The sort of neglect that Aaron detailed above doesn't happen overnight- it starts with stuff like unsecured tubes leading into vacuum pumps "minor details" as some of you say or "people make mistakes"... I can't believe anyone would ever go back to a shop that did that to them (in either case)... you're just asking for trouble if you let "people make mistakes" type of shops work on your aircraft.  FWIW- I no longer use 2 shops for this very reason, one of which is a popular msc: an overall lack of attention to detail. Not a good trait in a mechanic, or someone that you essentially trust with your life. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 Thoughts of an old(ish) guy.... Sharing a thought that came to mind that I held on to for days... *********************** There are right ways and wrong ways... It is probably better to respond in the right way, to a wrong, then use the old 'eye for an eye' method. It may be easier to respond that way. But it's also easier to fly a brand C as well. None of us want that either. In the case of delivering the truth, the photos and details, delivers a pretty strong message about the supplier. The title of the thread encompasses more than one MSC and "tried to kill" is recognized as possibly over inflating what really happened. Then again, this could have really happened in the real world... In NJ we had a person disconnect controls of another person's plane with the obvious tragic results. If you think this is possible in your case, seek legal advice. You have a really important point. Make it by sticking to the truth the best way you can. Overall, I think you can because you have done so well in other posts... Aim high! (thank you Air Force) Sincerely, -a- 1 Quote
PTK Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 ... If you find a mechanic that performs willful neglect, you should hammer him to the max extent practical. Make no mistake about this... "Willful neglect" implies very bad things. It implies someone who consciously, intentionally, deliberately, purposefully, voluntarily and with premeditation plans to not perform with or exercise reasonable care (negligence) knowing full well it will cause harm to another. It's a criminal state of mind. To say a mechanic is "willfully negligent" would be accusing them of being a criminal. Nothing has been presented here that rises to such criminal level. Need to be careful with our choice of words. Make no mistake about it. Quote
M016576 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 "Willful neglect" implies very bad things. It implies someone who consciously, intentionally, deliberately, purposefully, voluntarily and with premeditation plans to not perform with or exercise reasonable care (negligence) knowing full well it will cause harm to another. It's a criminal state of mind. To say a mechanic is "willfully negligent" would be accusing them of being a criminal. Nothing has been presented here that rises to such criminal level. Need to be careful with our choice of words. Make no mistake about it. I chose my words perfectly. Reference the pictures above. Willful neglect. 1 Quote
OR75 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 just out of curiosity ... was this an annual inspection ? why was there repairs needed ? in my near dozen annual inspections, there were very few times when riveting work was needed. ( only time i can think of was when i wanted to remove the ADF and the spot where the antenna was needed patching. i chose to do that during the annual. there are lots of competent mechanics out there, there are lots of them who are not ( just like electricians, plumbers, financial advisors , etc ...) . it is just that in aviation, the consequences can be harsh. even with IAs i know, trust and have worked with for a long time, I dread my first flight. I do an extra long run up, wait till the oil is warm, always chose the longest runway and would not fly IFR. i am picky about how my plane. Some annuals do more damage than good. ( cracked panels, put any screw that fit to close the panel, etc .... 1 Quote
aaronk25 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 just out of curiosity ... was this an annual inspection ? why was there repairs needed ? in my near dozen annual inspections, there were very few times when riveting work was needed. ( only time i can think of was when i wanted to remove the ADF and the spot where the antenna was needed patching. i chose to do that during the annual. there are lots of competent mechanics out there, there are lots of them who are not ( just like electricians, plumbers, financial advisors , etc ...) . it is just that in aviation, the consequences can be harsh. even with IAs i know, trust and have worked with for a long time, I dread my first flight. I do an extra long run up, wait till the oil is warm, always chose the longest runway and would not fly IFR. i am picky about how my plane. Some annuals do more damage than good. ( cracked panels, put any screw that fit to close the panel, etc .... Good question....rivet work was needed because after my gear up landing the shop didn't lock each wheel down in the down position they only locked the front nose wheel so when they towed the plane to the shop the left gear folded up and the flap hinge damaged the skin. Somehow they managed to do the same to the other side.....yes I know ridiculous! Anyhow the insurance company agreed to pay Willmar Air Service to put two new mooney factory skins on the airplane. The above pictures is how Willmar choose to install the skins. Yes I was not happy to say the least about the additional damage the FBO at KIGQ caused getting the plane off the runway, but planes are full of parts and almost all can he replaced so as long as the insurance company agreed to replace the parts with at least as good or preferably new parts, (which they did). I was fine and encouraged the insurance company to bolt on new parts as opposed to totaling a great airplane. With that said the plane is now in fantastic shape (testament is flying across the Gulf of Mexico a month ago). Long answer to the rivet question but I figured without a full response there would be more questions. Quote
BigTex Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 The fact is anytime you have maintenance done, it could lead to potentially disastrous results.  Back in my aerobatic days, I was pre-flighting a Decathlon and when I moved the elevator it locked up on me. I started looking around the bell crank and found a wrench lodged in there. As it turns out, the mechanic swapped out the battery earlier in the day and left his wrench next to the battery. The guy before me was up practicing hammerheads and the wrench fell to the back of the tail and must of ended up in the vertical stabilizer somewhere. That guy was very lucky.  We all need to minimize how often our planes are opened up and serviced. When we get them back, really look them over. You never know when that wrench might get left behind. Quote
Comatose Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Posted March 31, 2014 Edited the title to more accurately reflect the situation. Aaron's issues were way, way worse than mine. For what its worth, I've been flying five years, had this plane four. I've used this shop three times: two annuals and a prebuy. They are under new ownership, though the management and staff are largely the same. It was oddly quiet there this time around, though, so I guess the writing's on the wall. Quote
Hank Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 The fact is anytime you have maintenance done, it could lead to potentially disastrous results.  Back in my aerobatic days, I was pre-flighting a Decathlon and when I moved the elevator it locked up on me. I started looking around the bell crank and found a wrench lodged in there. As it turns out, the mechanic swapped out the battery earlier in the day and left his wrench next to the battery. The guy before me was up practicing hammerheads and the wrench fell to the back of the tail and must of ended up in the vertical stabilizer somewhere. That guy was very lucky.  We all need to minimize how often our planes are opened up and serviced. When we get them back, really look them over. You never know when that wrench might get left behind.  I got a nice current tester that way once, getting my car worked on. Found it a week or two later, intact but with the tip of the handle slightly melted. Don't know how it got to be on top of the manifold when they were mounting fog lights below the bumper . . . In my almost 7 years of Mooneyship, I have yet to "inherit" any aircraft tools, but my A&P is pretty good about loaning tools that I need until I can acquire my own. Quote
jetdriven Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 One guy here found a bucking bar in the wing, presumably left there by the factory in 1982. Quote
AndyFromCB Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 It could be a lot worst. My arrow flew for years and years with hacksaw shorten main spar wing bolts (probably from Ace Hardware) and the nut missing (as in not there) on the wing front attach hardware ;-) Looking over the logbooks it appears to have flown like that since 1983, passed an export certification to Canada, import certification back to USA, countless annuals by a big, big shop in Chicago and then my mechanic finally found it when he noticed a short rivet repair and decided to investigate further. Quote
chrisk Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 One guy here found a bucking bar in the wing, presumably left there by the factory in 1982. The way I heard it, the wing tip was replaced after a taxi event.....and the bucking bar discovered (preventing aileron deflection) on the run up for the second flight. Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 Title has improved tremendously... The multi piece solution I've understood so far... A ) speak directly to the supplier to see how they could resolve their shortcoming... Seams like that did not work... B ) with agreement of all players, bring plane to the next shop, send the bill to the first shop... Seams like that covered the known issues... C ) leftover concerns are still unknown.... D) detemining the unknowns could be similar to a PPI, or annual. All issues found are open to discussion. What else could a shop screw up while doing the initially planned work...? It takes a fair amount of fortitude to be a pilot, plane owner, and work a full time job...(and have a family life!) Best regards, -a- Quote
aaronk25 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Posted March 31, 2014 It takes a fair amount of fortitude to be a pilot, plane owner, and work a full time job...(and have a family life!) This is most true and exactly what I was trying to describe and you put it so elegantly! Very true and something for all pre-buyers to consider! Quote
fantom Posted April 1, 2014 Report Posted April 1, 2014 It takes a fair amount of fortitude to be a pilot, plane owner, and work a full time job...(and have a family life!) Â Â Me thinks most may be able to do a good job at three, but try all four and something will surely suffer 3 Quote
Comatose Posted April 3, 2014 Author Report Posted April 3, 2014 Under no circumstances should anyone EVER go to G Force Aviation in Akron, OH again. Evidently they have new ownership, and obviously they're circling the drain.  I went back to pick my plane up again today. The flaps still have two pumps of air in the lines. The brakes are still spongy. Adding insult to injury, the starter and electric fuel pump (both switches directly below the removed and overhauled attitude Indicator) are now only working intermittently.  My vacuum pump didn't self destruct in my half hour test flight, so that's good. Nobody but the office lady and the avionics guy were there when I went to pick it up.  When I called to voice my displeasure they did say "when do you want to drop it back off, we'll fix these things for free" but I politely declined to schedule anything. I requested the manager call me back. I will take it to a different shop, have it fixed properly, and send G Force the bill.  Again, G Force Aviation, Akron OH. My plane was in much better shape BEFORE I dropped it off. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted April 3, 2014 Report Posted April 3, 2014 My plane is currently being repaired, they sent the the landing gear motor and the muffler out for repairs. The gear motor came back after 3 weeks, we're at 6 weeks for the muffler? Is this normal? This is my first plane. I assume sending parts out to specialists is normal, but is the J muffler especially complicated? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
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