Looking for an Echo

[gsxrpilot]

I'm beginning to seriously shop for an M20E.  After a few years of researching while living abroad, I'm coming home and ready to get serious about owning.  As I try to learn the current market for M20E's I thought I'd ask this group for advice and impressions on these two adds from Barnstormers.  Obviously there is a significant difference in age and that might explain the difference in asking price.  But I'm curious if just based on this information, does anything stand out about either of these?  Are there any obvious red flags?  Is one over or under priced?  I'm just trying to learn all I can before diving into Mooney ownership.

 

Thanks,

Paul

 

1966 MOONEY M20E SUPER 21 • $39,500 • Wonderful 1966 Mooney M20E, Super 21, $39,500 OBO, 4010TT, Engine 750 SMOH, quiet and smooth 3 blade Hartzell Prop 575 SNEW, Weep-No-More re-sealed tanks (permanent solution to leaky tank problem). Upgraded grey leather interior installed 2006, KLN90B GPS, Garmin Digital Transponder, Premium Leather Yoke Upgrade, Digital engine monitor (talks to you if something is wrong!), annual inspection done in April, updated panel. Great plane for cross country and local flights. Flown regularly.

 

75 20E MOONEY CHAPARRAL • $55,000 • Lycoming IO-360 200 hp fuel injectedApollo/garmin 55 GPS Dual King175Bnav/coms STec 30 AP w/alt hold 2300 TTAF 600/S FOH 370SN prop and hub, elec/gear windshield mod, Tanis heater,4 place intercom EVERYTHING works, 10gph at 145/150kts Hangared very clean April annual this is a solid 8+ in and out and is a great airplane that needs nothing.

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

It is not age that sets price much in Vintage Mooney. At this point one is

pushing 40 and the other nearing 50 years old. Present condition is everything.

[rbridges]

mooneys are great cross country planes.  If you are instrument rated, I'd prefer to get one with a waas GPS.  The STEC in the '75 model is nice, but once again, I'd love a GPS with GPSS, especially in the mid 55k range.

 

the Weep no More reseal is great, one of the best (if not the best) places to get it done.  It's a personal call, but I'd like to get one with a 201 windshield, and the '66 model has the stock windshield.  Not a deal killer, but not what I'd want.

 

also, people will mention the 3 blade prop.  usually indicative of a gear up landing.  make sure you check the logs carefully on any plane you purchase and get a quality prebuy inspection.

[gsxrpilot]

Thanks, very good information.  I am instrument rated and one of the main reasons for a Mooney is cross country capability.  

 

Thanks again,

Paul

[carusoam]

You are seeing competition in the E market. You are posting the same plane as someone else and asking the same questions...

Some people felt the the E for $55k was too close in price to an F or low end J...

I wish I was selling E's this year.

Just letting you know...

Best regards,

-a-

[DrBill]

I have a 65 E I bought 2 1/2 years ago. <4K total time c 900 smoh, 3 blade prop, P&I 8/10 but the avionics were top notch. 430 WAAs with STEC 30 alt hold and GPSS. 4 years earlier the owner put 45K into the avionics for his cross country ops. I paid him $46K and I think I got a great deal. This plane is GREAT. fast, cheap to operate and fun to fly. An autopilot would cost c 12-15K to add on same for a new Garmin 650. I'm planning on adding ADSB in the next year ($6K). I added bladders last year C$8k. SO. it depends on how much you want to add to ge the plane you want.

I spent 6 months looking at 8 websites daily to find this one.

BILL

[22 others]

I have a 65 E I bought 2 1/2 years ago. <4K total time c 900 smoh, 3 blade prop, P&I 8/10 but the avionics were top notch. 430 WAAs with STEC 30 alt hold and GPSS. 4 years earlier the owner put 45K into the avionics for his cross country ops. I paid him $46K and I think I got a great deal. This plane is GREAT. fast, cheap to operate and fun to fly. An autopilot would cost c 12-15K to add on same for a new Garmin 650. I'm planning on adding ADSB in the next year ($6K). I added bladders last year C$8k. SO. it depends on how much you want to add to ge the plane you want.

I spent 6 months looking at 8 websites daily to find this one.

BILL

Thank you for talking real numbers.  The most frustrating thing about aircraft shopping is the lack of comps.  

[Z W]

The problem with shopping vintage machines is that their model year and engine times do not make them "comps."  I sold our C model about a year ago.  These are the main features I found you have to compare with any vintage plane:

 

1.  Engine time SMOH (overhaul = $30-40k)

2.  WAAS GPS (10-15k to add)

3.  Standard 6-pack panel layout (3-5k to add, with lots of down time)

4.  4-cylinder engine monitor (2-5k to add)

5.  Autopilot with altitude hold (10-15k to add)

6.  Paint and interior condition (10-25k to fix)

7.  Age of last tank reseal (10k job)

 

You can debate which of these should be on the list, and maybe some items that are not on the list, but you can clearly see, they all add up to far more than the list price of any E model.  You probably won't find one with all of those features.  My advice would be to prioritize them, and buy the one within your budget that contains as much of what you want as possible.

 

By the way - I wouldn't rule out an exceptionally well-equipped C model if I were you.  They are often a better bargain, and just about as capable as the E.

 

Happy shopping.

[rob]

I agree. A well equipped C can be a much better value than an E

[adrian]

Just as relevant as engine time since overhaul is when the overhaul was done, and how much use it gets. I would much prefer 1500 SMOH in 2008 to 300 SMOH in 1998. Things deteriorate with age, and one of the biggest problems with light aircraft is lack of use. The ones that get flown a lot generally aren't for sale, often because their owners have spent way more on them than they are worth.

I bought an E that had sat for a long time. I knew what I was getting into, and the engine had been pickled for storage and turned out to be in great shape. But with a lot of years since overhaul, it needed new hoses, overhauled mags, new engine mounts, new crankshaft seal, new suspension discs, etc. etc. Having now spent almost twice what I could sell it for, I have a fabulous airplane which isn't for sale!

Another example - at the end of 2012 I bought a Super Decathlon. 270 hours SMOH in 2007. Unfortunately (as we thought at the time) my co-owner had a prop strike and the engine had to be torn down. It had significant internal corrosion, most likely caused by 3 years of under use in Florida before being sold to the guy we bought it from. So do beware of overhaul times; they don't tell the full story.

[neilpilot]

After 20+ years in a 64E, I've been in a 65C for about 1 year.  Both with 3-blade prop.  The climb rate maybe a bit lower, but I don't see much difference in cruise.  The C does start much easier!

[rbridges]

Thank you for talking real numbers.  The most frustrating thing about aircraft shopping is the lack of comps.  

 

 

like Zane said, finding comps can be hard b/c there are soooo many variables.  Jimmy Garrison has a site for valuation of mooneys, but I would only use it as an aid and not as gospel.

 

http://www.vintagemooneygroup.com/M20EValuation.html

[chrisk]

The problem with shopping vintage machines is that their model year and engine times do not make them "comps."  I sold our C model about a year ago.  These are the main features I found you have to compare with any vintage plane:

 

1.  Engine time SMOH (overhaul = $30-40k)

2.  WAAS GPS (10-15k to add)

3.  Standard 6-pack panel layout (3-5k to add, with lots of down time)

4.  4-cylinder engine monitor (2-5k to add)

5.  Autopilot with altitude hold (10-15k to add)

6.  Paint and interior condition (10-25k to fix)

7.  Age of last tank reseal (10k job)

 

You can debate which of these should be on the list, and maybe some items that are not on the list, but you can clearly see, they all add up to far more than the list price of any E model.  You probably won't find one with all of those features.  My advice would be to prioritize them, and buy the one within your budget that contains as much of what you want as possible.

 

By the way - I wouldn't rule out an exceptionally well-equipped C model if I were you.  They are often a better bargain, and just about as capable as the E.

 

Happy shopping.

For me, these would be the primary items.  And as you said, good luck finding a plane with all of them.

My top 3 would be:

• Corrosion free airframe
• Engine 
  • What you want is a quality rebuild that is not to old and that has had regular uses.
  • High time is ok, but usually not fully reflected in the price.  
  • Long periods of sparse use should probably be considered as a timed out engine.  Just to many unknowns.
• Avionics
  • An auto pilot is at the top of my list, with my preference being the Brittan.
  • A WAAS GPS is very nice, as most airports have a GPS approach.  But older GPS systems don't have much value.  My plane came with a Northstar M3.  It was clunky and you could not get an updated data base for it.
  • An ADF is just about useless.
  • Dual Nav/Coms are nice. 

 

 

 

 

Other options which you might be interested in:

• Long range tanks (I think all options are after market)
• 2 blade vs 3 blade prop.  There seems to be an opinion that the 2 blade prop is faster.
• A prop with/with out the reoccurring eddy current inspection.  ( I think every 100 hours)
• Modern Gear pucks
• Countless modifications (Windscreen, speed breaks, etc)

[Bob_Belville]

I think the market may be a little weaker than it was 2 years ago when I paid over $50k for a '66E with 2695 TT & 590 SFRM. It had a STEC50 w Alt,Hld, a Stormscope 900, speed brakes and virtually all the 201 mods. (It also has a KNS80 and an HSI and an IFR GPS but all those were 10-15 year old technology and have been replaced at considerable expense.) 

 

Mods and upgrades are expensive and depreciate fast right off the lot. I recommend making a list of features you want and look for them as you shop since they will cost a lot more to add after you buy the plane. For single pilot IFR, my list would start with a good autopilot with alt hld. I am personally very fond of stormscopes. Finding an E with WAAS GPS and GPSS would save you a lot of money in the long run. 

[HRM]

I agree. A well equipped C can be a much better value than an E

 

...but a C can't be super.

[DrBill]

Bob B and I bought our planes about the same time and had the same mechanic do the prebuy. When he did his panel upgrade I bought his JPI450 fuel meter and had it installed... A great add-on. We still have yet to get together somewhere even though we are 60 mi apart. I promise it will happen soon.

BILL

[rob]

...but a C can't be super.

Not in name, I suppose, but in reality I know of a few Cs that are more super than some Es

[rob]

<p>

For me, these would be the primary items. And as you said, good luck finding a plane with all of them.

My top 3 would be:

• Corrosion free airframe
• Engine
  • What you want is a quality rebuild that is not to old and that has had regular uses.
  • High time is ok, but usually not fully reflected in the price.
  • Long periods of sparse use should probably be considered as a timed out engine. Just to many unknowns.
• Avionics
  • An auto pilot is at the top of my list, with my preference being the Brittan.
  • A WAAS GPS is very nice, as most airports have a GPS approach. But older GPS systems don't have much value. My plane came with a Northstar M3. It was clunky and you could not get an updated data base for it.
  • An ADF is just about useless.
  • Dual Nav/Coms are nice.

Other options which you might be interested in:

• Long range tanks (I think all options are after market)
• 2 blade vs 3 blade prop. There seems to be an opinion that the 2 blade prop is faster.
• A prop with/with out the reoccurring eddy current inspection. ( I think every 100 hours)
• Modern Gear pucks
• Countless modifications (Windscreen, speed breaks, etc)

I know of one plane for sale that has all of the things you've listed, sans the long range tanks.

[gsxrpilot]

Do tell.  The long range tanks would be at the bottom of the list for me.

[gsxrpilot]

Here's the first draft of the sorted list.  It's subject to change and I'm posting here asking for comments and advice.  The budget will be $50K.  I'm interested in how far down the list or how many items on the list would fit into that budget.

 

M20E or M20C - after the advice here and another day of reading... I really think either would do just fine.

 

1. No frame corrosion
2. Engine < 1000 SMOH
3. Regularly flown
4. Standard 6-pack panel
5. IFR Certified
6. Autopilot
7. Dual Nav/Comms
8. HSI
9. WAAS GPS
10. Airframe < 4000 TAT
11. no AD on prop
12. 1 piece windshield
13. Tank bladders or sealed tanks
14. Engine monitor
15. Exterior paint
16. Interior condition
17. 2 blade prop
18. Damage history

 

Thanks for all the help guys,

 

Paul

[Hank]

That looks like a sensible list, although I've only made three or four flights behind an HSI.

Have you scrolled down to the "Selling Aircraft" forum? There's a couple of Cs and an E there now.

Good luck with your search!

[Marauder]

That looks like a sensible list, although I've only made three or four flights behind an HSI.

 

 

Until last year, I was a DG/CDI guy. Once you go HSI, you'll never go back

[Hank]

Until last year, I was a DG/CDI guy. Once you go HSI, you'll never go back

I dunno, my DG has the Brittain heading bug on it. Never can remember which one runs that and which does approaches while I manage altitude. No, the one on the left and easiest to reach is the heading bug, but is that AccuTrak or AccuFlite? Being beside each other doesn't help unconfuse me. They are great systems, simple and reliable.

[rob]

Until last year, I was a DG/CDI guy. Once you go HSI, you'll never go back

 

Ever since I installed my Aspen, everything else just doesn't feel right...

[Marauder]

I dunno, my DG has the Brittain heading bug on it. Never can remember which one runs that and which does approaches while I manage altitude. No, the one on the left and easiest to reach is the heading bug, but is that AccuTrak or AccuFlite? Being beside each other doesn't help unconfuse me. They are great systems, simple and reliable.

You got a picture of that?

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