AOA installation

[Marauder]

What worries ME is that some are encouraging pilots to go buy a gadget, calibrate it himself, and entrust to it to pushing the envelope, on what happens to be the most fatal maneuver for GA!  Stall/spins in the pattern. (These statistics according to the FAA and AOPA.)

 

Instead we need to be promoting education and training. For the purposes of this discussion, training in slow flight. How do we perform slow flight maneuvers? Not with the stall horn screaming of course, but on the edge of stall buffet.

 

And once we get good at this the airplane can be controlled much closer to the edge of the envelope without any gadget. Arguably, without even an ASI!

 

We shouldn't confuse a "make believe" AOA gadget with a true AOA system in a fighter jet landing on an aircraft carrier or a transport jet. The aerodynamics are very different than ours and they have TRUE AOA systems.

 

Consider weight. At what fraction of their t/o weight do they routinely land compared to us? We're 80 or 90% (?) They're more like 50%!

 

And for those die-hard fans of these "gadgets" try calling the FAA and ask them if they'll let you put one in without an STC! 

 

Better yet call the FSDO and ask them for a field approval!

 

If you're using AOA gadgets to manage airspeed, as some have suggested, you are by definition using it as primary. 

 

"The system is non-required and used in an advisory or supplementary manner. The system will not be used in lieu of the airspeed indicator or aircraft stall warning system. No operational credit may be taken for the installation, such as reduced stall speeds, reduced approach speeds, reduced takeoff or landing distances, etc.

..accuracy of indication of stall must coincide with stall horn or be conservative (indicate stall at a higher airspeed) as compared to existing stall warning devices."

...FAA

 

 

You're scaring me now Peter! Based on your logic, I should remove my VSI, GPS, engine analyzer and probably a few other gizmos I have installed in the plane that are supplemental.

 

As for calibrating it yourself -- who calibrated your stall warning for you?

[WardHolbrook]

Mooney pilots don't seem to be stalling and spinning in the pattern all that much, only about 6% of Mooney accidents. What Mooney pilots do seem to be quite adept at is losing control on the runway (R-LOC). About 1 in 5 Mooney accidents is R-LOC related. As a CFI, one of the big issues I see is guys (and gals) simply flying their Mooney too dang fast crossing the fence. 1.3 Vso plus an appropriate amount for gusts is enough. (If you're doing it right 1.2Vso works well too.) The problem is that Vso is not a constant. There is a big difference between indicated stall speed with minimal fuel when you're flying solo and indicated stall speed at max gross weight. The only thing that's constant is the angle of attack at which the stall occurs. The problems occur when guys start adding unnecessary or inappropriate cushions to a speed that, at best, many are just guessing at. It becomes pretty easy for some guys to end up 5 to 15 KIAS too fast. That together with the low ground clearance Mooney wing and you can get a bunch of R-LOC incidents as that Mooney wing floats and floats and floats some more. All of that goes away with an AoA. The correct speed every time, no questions asked. 

[PTK]

You're scaring me now Peter! Based on your logic, I should remove my VSI, GPS, engine analyzer and probably a few other gizmos I have installed in the plane that are supplemental.

 

As for calibrating it yourself -- who calibrated your stall warning for you?

Chris, that would be a question for the FAA or local FSDO! 

[DonMuncy]

I still don't have an answer as to the difference between an AOA gadget and a true AOA.

[PTK]

I still don't have an answer as to the difference between an AOA gadget and a true AOA.

You are capable of doing your own research Don!

 

A good starting point for us would be envelope protection and alerting like for example with the Avidyne DFC90 autopilot.

[fantom]

You are capable of doing your own research Don!

 

A good starting point for us would be envelope protection and alerting like for example with the Avidyne DFC90 autopilot.

 

There has got to be a better way for you to get attention, dent, without this babble.....

 

[RocketAviator]

Man all I can say is this is one tough crowd... so I want to tread lightly here.  While it may confound some here on this thread, I would be willing to purchase one of the $355 or so AOA models types that is being offered, especially if it helps meet the purchase point quantity.   And yet another confounding element I say ever so quietly is I would seriously consider installing it just to see the difference side by side to my Alpha unit!

 

May be a bit off the topic of this thread (which may be greatly welcomed or NOT) but I am getting ready for retirement (soon hopefully) so today I started thinking about another airplane besides my Mooney... maybe or most likely an Experimental just for fun flying.  Which by the way I don't do in my Mooney Rocket, it is a mission specific, get in and go somewhere fast plane.  Other than that and training I dont just fly it for fun.  I usually fly somewhere between 100 and 300 hrs a year depending on my work schedule.  I expect 2014 to be closer to the 300 mark at this point.   By 2015 I hope to be able to hang the full time work side of things up and spend some time doing some things I would like to do...

 

So with all that babbling my thought is this would be cheap to check out at less than $400.  Just as an FYI I have seen on the internet a very low cost option utilizing a simple differential manometer (which the technology that Alpha effectively utilizes) that can be built with things i have in my factory for less than $100!  Not near as nice a unit but effective none the less.  They show that It can be done with a probe or two holes.... so I they say! Not promoting just stating what I ran across when I was learning about and investigating AOA's.

 

Fly Safe

Rocket On,

[David Mazer]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder, Wishboneash, Aviatoreb, Rocket Aviator, and mikerocosm. 

 

Maybe: DaV8or?

 

8 or 9 in with 1 or 2 to go.

 

Almost there. So, let's get all the remaining questions answered and one more person and get Rip working on sending them out.

[John Pleisse]

The preceding bickering aside (reading this thread for the first time tonight)....I think getting a commercial rating and maintaining good skills is a far better investment. I say this because you spend the entire Commercial rating dividing your attention at the edge of the envelope and it sticks with you. I like the ice detection, though. A clever bonus.

 

Mazer...put me down for one....btw, did you sell your Rocket?

[WardHolbrook]

Oh and one more thing...

 

I had to take my wife to the oncologist (ALL good news!) after I made my last post, so I was a bit distracted while I was composing that post. One of my pet peeves as a CFI is seeing pilots use one poor technique to compensate for other poor techniques. Unfortunately you see it quite often and it seems like it's more prevalent among some Mooney drivers as opposed to pilots of other makes and models. In my last post I mentioned the common error of crossing the threshhold too fast and the problems that this causes. One of the other things I see pilots do to compensate for this extra speed is to do things like using less than full flaps as their normal flap setting and, my personal favorite dumb trick, start retracting the flaps while they're floating down the runway in the landing flare. Mooneys will land quite nicely thank you using conventional procedures and techniques. If you don't believe me, talk to former factory test and demo pilots and most of the guys who frequent this forum. Here's a quick test - If I were to ask you what speed you fly crossing the fence in your Mooney what would your answer be? "It all depends" is probably the correct answer depending upon what you think it all depends upon. If your answer is a firm fixed number then there's a good chance that you're not looking at this correctly. Oh well, enough of this CFI stuff, I'm going down stairs ti see what the wife is planning for dinner. 

[PTK]

There has got to be a better way for you to get attention, dent, without this babble.....

If it's going to save a life, I don't mind it one bit!

Besides, your opinion doesn't concern me really! I tune out noise!

[bnicolette]

There is a big difference between indicated stall speed with minimal fuel when you're flying solo and indicated stall speed at max gross weight. 

 

This is about 7-8 knots in my airplane.  

 

Ward shouldn't you be planning the dinner after your wife's day?   Glad everything is well!!!   

[WardHolbrook]

This is about 7-8 knots in my airplane.  

 

Ward shouldn't you be planning the dinner after your wife's day?   Glad everything is well!!!   

I offered. 

[Bennett]

I've previously mentioned the fact that I had an AOA indicator and probe on my DOVA, and that I could never get it calibrated to the point that I could trust it. The probe (heated) looked very much like the Alpha probe, and had three tubes running from the probe to the indicator. The display presentation was excellent, but as I said, I was not able to calibrate it to my satisfaction (nor could various mechanics).  I like the idea of the idea of an AOA system, as one more tool that has its place in flying. At Oshkosh I spent a good deal of time at the Alpha booth, and personally, I didn't like the answers I heard about calibration.  I also saw the Bendix / King unit for experimental aircraft, and while I liked the display concept, I didn't like the glareshield mount, nor the probe system, which appeared to be identical to the Alpha probe. Until I read through this forum I was unaware of the CYA-100 system. Now that looks like a reasonable (and elegant) approach.  No hoses and tubes, and should be easy to mount on an inspection plate.  Unfortunately the video does not clearly show the size of the indicator. I assume you could flush mount it, but what is the overall height, and most importantly to me, the width? I have very little panel space left from my refurbishment of the avionics. If I can ascertain that I could flush mount it near my ASI, I will order one, hopefully as a part of the group buy.  

[rq3]

I've previously mentioned the fact that I had an AOA indicator and probe on my DOVA, and that I could never get it calibrated to the point that I could trust it. The probe (heated) looked very much like the Alpha probe, and had three tubes running from the probe to the indicator. The display presentation was excellent, but as I said, I was not able to calibrate it to my satisfaction (nor could various mechanics).  I like the idea of the idea of an AOA system, as one more tool that has its place in flying. At Oshkosh I spent a good deal of time at the Alpha booth, and personally, I didn't like the answers I heard about calibration.  I also saw the Bendix / King unit for experimental aircraft, and while I liked the display concept, I didn't like the glareshield mount, nor the probe system, which appeared to be identical to the Alpha probe. Until I read through this forum I was unaware of the CYA-100 system. Now that looks like a reasonable (and elegant) approach.  No hoses and tubes, and should be easy to mount on an inspection plate.  Unfortunately the video does not clearly show the size of the indicator. I assume you could flush mount it, but what is the overall height, and most importantly to me, the width? I have very little panel space left from my refurbishment of the avionics. If I can ascertain that I could flush mount it near my ASI, I will order one, hopefully as a part of the group buy.  

Good to see someone from my old stomping grounds! I learned to fly at SQL in the 70's. I'm still in touch with my CFI, Jim Evart.

Bennett, please go to the CYA-100 website, and in particular download the installation and operation manual at the top of the "TECH" page:

http://www.ackemma.com/index.html

Doing that will answer any questions about size, weight, power, how it works, and all those other nitty, gritty details.

Rip

[David Mazer]

Bennett, the indicator is very small (2 x 1.25 x 0.375 inch).  If you go to the website and download the installation manual there is a template for the display.

[David Mazer]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder, Wishboneash, Aviatoreb, Rocket Aviator, N4352H, and mikerocosm. 

 

Maybe: DaV8or?

 

9 or 10 in with maybe 1 to go.

 

Almost there. So, let's get all the remaining questions answered and one more person and get Rip working on sending them out.

[fantom]

A couple of decent pictures of installed displays, PLEASE, before we all take our lives in our hands

[Marauder]

A couple of decent pictures of installed displays, PLEASE, before we all take our lives in our hands

Or give ourselves a root canal...

[rq3]

A couple of decent pictures of installed displays, PLEASE, before we all take our lives in our hands

fantom, the folks who have bought these seem to be more interested in providing photos of the probe, rather than the display.

But here's a couple of quicktime movs:

TAOA_100.movmovie1.mov

 

Hope this works!

Rip

[M016576]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder, Wishboneash, Aviatoreb, Rocket Aviator, N4352H, and mikerocosm. 

 

Maybe: DaV8or?

 

9 or 10 in with maybe 1 to go.

 

Almost there. So, let's get all the remaining questions answered and one more person and get Rip working on sending them out.

I'm in for one.

[m20kmooney]

What worries ME is that some are encouraging pilots to go buy a gadget, calibrate it himself, and entrust to it the pushing of the envelope, of what happens to be the most fatal maneuver for GA! Stall/spins in the pattern. (These statistics according to the FAA and AOPA.)

I couldn't agree more with PTK. Hit the nail on the head. And for what maybe 5 knots and a couple hundred feet runway? Learn to control your airspeed people!

[David Mazer]

Now in (assuming all questions are answered):

M016576, Fantom, Hank, BobAustin, Marauder, Wishboneash, Aviatoreb, Rocket Aviator, N4352H, and mikerocosm. 

 

Maybe: DaV8or?

 

Fantom, did you get sufficient  pictures?  Did you look at my CYA-100 thread?  There are also pictures there.  As for taking your lives in your hands, I can only tell you I've flown with 3 different AOAs and this is the easiest to install and calibrate and has worked well and reliably.  Not a large sample but better than blind faith.

 

Almost there. So, let's get all the remaining questions answered and one more person and get Rip working on sending them out.

[David Mazer]

I couldn't agree more with PTK. Hit the nail on the head. And for what maybe 5 knots and a couple hundred feet runway? Learn to control your airspeed people!

 

I just don't understand how to explain that it is the ASI that is more likey to lead you to the 5 kts mistake than the AOA when you are heavier than you expect on a hotter day than usual and your stall speed has increased more than you think it will.  The AOA makes it possible to always, if you chose, to approach at 1.3 VSO rather than possibly at 1.1 without knowing it.  Of all the areas of aviation (military, commercial, GA), the military depends, and maybe the A/P logic in airlines too for all I know, on AOAs to maintain safety under the most difficult environments and they do very well at it.  Why shouldn't we learn from their success?

[bnicolette]

For those of you installing the AOA would it make more sense to install it on the right wing of the airplane since we already have protection on the left wing?  Just food for thought.

What is the projected install time of the unit in question?  How about paperwork?  Chris how are you making out with the letter?