Touch and Go Technique

[Skybrd]

I've been thinking about doing some touch and go's but have a couple of issues. My J model has electric trim and the indicator is hiding under the Century III autopilot area.  I don't want to take my view off the runway to watch the trim indicator. I'm thinking about practicing using manual trim wheel adjustment and counting the sweeps that bring the trim within usable take off range. I'm not sure about this as a accident cause, but remember about a Mooney that crashed on TO in Arizona earlier this year was probably due to trim being set wrong. It had a climb out stall and came down killing the pilot.  I'm thinking this might have also been caused by trim changes when the flaps were retracted to more positive pitch.

[Steve65E-NC]

I usually land full flaps.  As soon as I touch down I flip the hydraulic latch up.  Just before I apply power I flip the hydraulic latch and  put in one stroke of flaps for take-off.  Watching and trying to stop flap travel at the right point is too distracting.  With my mechanical gear, no worry about confusing gear and flaps (with electric gear I might modify this).  With my short body aircraft trim does not seem to be a big issue (I understand that this will not do on some mooney models), I set it on approach and readjust it when back in the air.

[jetdriven]

Quote: N6843N

So here is a scenerio for you instructor types that is a very real possibility where I live. You have just touched down while landing, a deer runs out from the trees and stops on the runway, your going to fast to stop, do you try a go around? Do you just hit the deer? For the record T&G's in my Mooney just do not float my boat for all the reasons sited above. I think about the above scenerio every time I do an evening landing, yet I still can't make up my mind, which could lead to disaster.

[1964-M20E]

If my memory serves me correctly trim was more of an issue on a 172 than my 20E.  I do T&Gs and I have done them on 3000' strips but you need to land early on the strip.  I've also done a go around when I intended to do a T&G on several ocassions.  Good practice any way you slice it.  Is it dangerous?  I do not feel any more dangerous than taking off flying and landing.  I had one instructor tell me you do not do T&Gs in a complex airplane but I see F-15s doing T&Gs all the time I think they qualify as a complex aircraft.

[Hank]

The gear and flap switches are not easily confused, being a foot or so apart. Gear is in front of my at the top of the panel, and is a big, round white lever; flaps is a small metal toggle switch down by the mixture knob.

I typically land with Takeoff flaps, and often the trim is right where I put it for takeoff. On a T&G, I don't mess with the trim until I'm back in the air. Wheels rolling, nose down, directional control good--quick glance to find flap switch, hold til noise indicates Full Up, push throttle forward and rotate at 70. Use yoke to establish climb [lots of forward pressure here], clear any obstacles then drop hand to trim wheel and turn as required. I've never thought to count the turns other than on Emergency Gear Extension [52 cranks on the little lever].

[jetdriven]

an F-15 is NOT a complex aircraft. It does not have a controllable-pitch propeller

FAR 61.31

A complex aircraft is defined as an airplane that has retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller (constant speed). If the aircraft is a seaplane, it must have just flaps and a controllable pitch propeller.

Quote: 1964-M20E

If my memory serves me correctly trim was more of an issue on a 172 than my 20E.  I do T&Gs and I have done them on 3000' strips but you need to land early on the strip.  I've also done a go around when I intended to do a T&G on several ocassions.  Good practice any way you slice it.  Is it dangerous?  I do not feel any more dangerous than taking off flying and landing.  I had one instructor tell me you do not do T&Gs in a complex airplane but I see F-15s doing T&Gs all the time I think they qualify as a complex aircraft.

[Vref]

Did nothing but T&G during my J conversion about 30 of them I landed full flaps and did not touch them till back airborn....During T&G training your not full loaded in general. I never had a feeling that the aircraft wasn't climbing well...The trick I believe is to get rid of the drag of the Landing gear out asap....

[gregwatts]

Touch and goes are a training exercise normally done in training aircraft. It is hard on an airplane......you are paying the bill, so have at it!

I rarely ever use full flaps....if I have to go around, I am fairly close to take-off settings. In winds above 30 kts, I barely use flaps....if at all.

But that is just me.............

[KSMooniac]

Those of you routinely using less than full flaps, I have to ask why?  Using full flaps reduces the landing speeds, which in turn reduce the forces on the landing gear, as well as tire and brake wear.  We pay the bills, so I wonder why any owner wouldn't want to maximize the life of consumable components like tires, donuts, and brakes.  

[gregwatts]

Quote: KSMooniac

Those of you routinely using less than full flaps, I have to ask why?  Using full flaps reduces the landing speeds, which in turn reduce the forces on the landing gear, as well as tire and brake wear.  We pay the bills, so I wonder why any owner wouldn't want to maximize the life of consumable components like tires, donuts, and brakes.  

[Hank]

Flaps are simply another tool to reach my desired point on the runway. Forces on the landing gear are much greater from impact [vertical speed] than by touching down a few mph faster. Be smooth and you will do little to them even if landing heavy with zero flaps and a load of ice [not recommended!]. I don't try to touch the brakes until about 40 mph, usually just after raising flaps, and I brake lightly. Maybe that's because we only have one turnoff ~1000' from the approach end of 26; the rare occasions I land on 8, I sometimes make the turn with little braking needed.

My Owner's Manual says to set flaps as desired to reach the runway [see my post on the first page for the full quote], so that's what I do. With trees at both ends, I need to keep a little power on anyway until I'm clear, then I go to Idle and float down gently. [see photos below.] I often chirp the tires on by the third stripe; going full flaps in calm or light winds may shorten this up by one whole stripe, but in strong winds [especially crosswinds] full flaps are not desirable. So all of my landings are the same except for my feet--I wiggle them for alignment, roll the yoke for drift, tweak the flaps and throttle if needed for angle, and glide toward the wide black stripe. More wind means more footwork, but hands, throttle and flaps are the same. Makes for lower stress in less-than-favorable wind conditions as long as it's not blowing from behind me [nothing makes a tailwind landing nice]. I have a video landing on 26 but can't post it here; my wife made it, and didn't tell me until afterwards, I thought she was just taking pictures. 22 MB, so I can't email it, either. Any ideas?

Strong winds may need a tad more throttle if I forget to turn base early; lately calm winds have been leaving me high because I'm used to a headwind on final, so I add more flaps and reduce throttle early. Beyond the trees when landing on 26 is a nice, deep cut for a 4-lane divided highway; the vines growing on the bank are visible in the photo--extra incentive to not get low! Besides, it's hard crawling under the plane to dig leaves out of the gear doors.

T&G:  roll all wheels; glance at & raise flaps; [it is now a normal takeoff, a little further down the runway] throttle forward; rotate at 70; positive rate, gear up; pitch for desired climbing speed [lots of forward yoke]; clear obstacles, if any; start spinning trim. I do NOT do T&G at home, it's too short even without the trees. I like 5000' minimum. Did many with my CFII; did some with the DPE on my Instrument Checkride. "Normal" takeoffs have the trim pre-set; T&Gs just require extra compensation with the yoke until I'm climbing well, then I drop my hand from throttle to trim wheel. Haven't had a CFI pull the throttle on me at that point yet.

[KSMooniac]

Increased lift means you can lift the same weight at a slower speed, so thus you can land slower...

[Hank]

I was taught when landing that flaps generate more drag than lift once you pass 1/3 to 1/2 deflection . . . thus full flaps allow a steeper descent. When I am high, I increase flap angle; the higher I am, the more flaps I put in. It's part of the benefit of fully-variable flaps vs. fixed detents only.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: KSMooniac

Those of you routinely using less than full flaps, I have to ask why?  Using full flaps reduces the landing speeds, which in turn reduce the forces on the landing gear, as well as tire and brake wear.  We pay the bills, so I wonder why any owner wouldn't want to maximize the life of consumable components like tires, donuts, and brakes.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

I am convinced from firsthand experience it is not this difficult to use full flaps, use the correct approach speeds, and touch down accurately at any point on the runway.  But for some reason about 1/3 of the pilots on this board feel otherwise and come up with the most complicated techniques, to include final approach speeds at 90 KIAS.  Mooneys are simple airplanes.

[mulro767]

My touch and go technique is very simple and has kept me out of trouble for many years.  After touching down on the runway, I taxi back to the beginning while accomplishing all my checklists, then I go.  I may be overly cautious, but in my opinion, touch and go's are for rental aircraft.

[MARZ]

Not advocating one method or another but the relationship of full or partial flaps to speed as many are eluding to is wrong.   Full flaps allow a steeper decent angle without increasing speed. You can do an approach at the same speed regardless of flap setting.    

[jetdriven]

Stall speeds with full flap are lower. Hence your 1.3 Vso aproach speed is lower. When you pull the power off to touch down, the landing roll is shorter. Unless faced with a strong cross wind or gusty winds, what is the argument for less than full flaps on landing?

[Shadrach]

Quote: gregwatts

 Flaps don't reduce speed, they increase lift. I typically use as much runway as necessary to avoid braking at all. I going into a short runway, I may increase flaps.........but in the event of an aborted landing, it is one less thing to deal with if going missed. For me, I feel like the plane is more manueverable with less than full flaps.

I usually have to call the tower to find out if I am on the ground yet..........just sayin"

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

Stall speeds with full flap are lower. Hence your 1.3 Vso aproach speed is lower. When you pull the power off to touch down, the landing roll is shorter. Unless faced with a strong cross wind or gusty winds, what is the argument for less than full flaps on landing?

[M016576]

Quote: Shadrach

There isn't a logical one. It's a subjective feeling that some have. I also think it may be born out of disposition that some people have towards always doing what is unconventional. The "my way is better" attitude is what it is, physics is an afterthought. I've yet to see a convincing case made that partial flap landings are superior in anyway except for in strong Xwinds when the additional control authority that comes with additional speed can be used. Even then it takes a significant Xwind for it to make sense.

[Vref]

The place where I converted to a J (it was a rental mooney) not landing at full flaps or doT&G was no option. Try landing with half flaps an you will eat grass at the end...btw the RWY was less then 1800 Ft.  my 0.5 eurocent on the subject.

What I have learned from several hundred hours gliding you land with less then full flaps when the wind is really blowing allowing better controllability during the flare. Control input to maintain attitude is less with half flaps, however you pay for it landing distance .....however with the mooney I don't see much of a point in not landing full flaps all the time....its a stable platform

Luc