Whats going on with values of the older fleet?

[Immelman]

I'm looking at selling a half-share of my airplane and need to get into what the market is really doing. I knew things were bad for sellers, but... I took a recent look at Vref and my plane (66 Mooney E) seems to have come down about 25% from just six months ago (eek). Based on condition, time, and equipment it values my plane at $31K and change. Jimmy Garrison's calculator comes in around $40K.

Just curious what your respective opinions are on resale values these days. I knew that things took a dive in the recession and it wasn't likely to completely recover, but the number I got from Vref put a serious damper on spirits.

For "fun" I decided to take a little AOPA Vref tour that encompassed other aircraft around the same vintage. I plugged in similar AFTT and SMOH, same paint, interior, and avionics. The results were enlightening. Unfortunately AOPA limits you to pulling 6 Vrefs per day...

Its a pretty tough pill to swallow to accept that a Mooney is worth barely a nickel more than a similarly equipped Cherokee or 172...

1966 PA-28-180 - $28.8K
1968 C172, 150hp (bumped up the model year to go away from the anemic 145hp enigne) - $28K
1966 Mooney M20E, 200hp - $31K
1969 PA-28R-200 (earliest 200hp arrow) - $42.1K
1966 Comanche 260 - $47K
 

Can anyone who bought or sold a Mooney recently give me some input here, PM is fine.

[Bob_Belville]

I sent you a pm with the Jimmy Garrison worksheet on my '66E which has a lot of mods and improvements and comes out over $100,000! I bought it 2/12 and I suspect the prices have declined quite a bit since then.

[pinerunner]

I bought mine (63 M20E) close to two years ago for 35K from an owner who had been trying to sell it for 39K for close to a year. He jumped on it in a heartbeat. Mine has marginal IFR (no GPS or autopilot) which made it fine for my IFR training but much less than ideal for hardcore IFR cross country. So I guess that explains the low price and from what you say it may have devalued a bit more. 

 

I think its important for these planes to get flown frequently and co-ownership is a great way to do that if you don't have the time or money yourself to fly it often. If you find the right coowner (maybe harder than good marriage partner) and are able to fly it more, etc, your plane should be of more value to a saavy buyer down the road than some supposedly low-time plane that only flys every couple of months.

 

As long as you don't have to sell 1/2 interest stupidly low, I'd worry more about who you end up sharing the plane with. Someone easy to be on the same page with.

 

I'm thinking about doing the same thing in a year and would be very interested in any comments on how these relationships can work out well or not so well.

 

Dave 

[Seth]

It is a buyers market. 

 

If a plane is a beauty, she'll sell quickly at more reasonable numbers, but to get your plane to that condition usually takes more than the delta between selling lower and the price she'll sell at when optimal. 

 

One of the pilots at my field who recently sold his Cessna and purchased a Bonanza (hard choice for him between the Bo and the Mooney - almost got a Mooney as well) said the following:  "Avionics sell your airplane.  No WAAS GPS, lower the price a LOT."  His Cessna sold to the first potential buyer who he happened to talk to and he had a GTN 650 in it.  His Bonanza had NOTHING new in it, and he's putting a 650 in it.  He got it for a very good deal.  His Cessna moved so quickly and the Bo had been on the market for a while.

 

Many of the "good" planes are sold before they ever hit controller/trade-a-plane etc . . . some great planes are on there and advertised, but again, many sell without an add placed.  If I were looking for a Mooney, I'd talk to the MSCs or people around the airport (or this board) to see if one is available.

 

If I were trying to sell a half share, I'd talk to everyone on my field as well as fields nearby, shops, you name it, to get word out.  Someone may bite.

 

-Seth

[PMcClure]

 A good solid plane and a good solid partner are worth more than the plane alone. Find the right partner and arrangement and Vref doesn't matter that much. I bought into a group of 3 other pilots on my home field with a 68 F model. I paid more than Vref and figured that at $15k for a 1/4 share, the risk was much less than a sole ownership. Also, the plane had been based on the field for 10 years with 2 of the partners together for the same time. When I sold it, I got $1000 more than I put into it (including improvements). I sold the partnership and solid plane and got more than Vref. I agree it is a buyers market but every situation is different. 

[KSMooniac]

I would trust Jimmy's valuation much more than Vref since he has his own experience/specialty with Mooneys to back it up.  In your case, your plane has been flying and maintained regularly (I presume it has since you changed careers!) and that alone makes it worth more than the $30-40k Mooneys that have been sitting on the market IMO.  Looking at ads for those is kinda depressing...sooner or later they'll fetch only scrap value and then it might make economic sense to buy one for a total restoration job, instead of just self-rationalization sense.  

 

I'd also say it should be worth more than any Arrow since it is faster and more robust.  But I'm a bit biased...

[garysuperpilot]

I picked up my 67f model for 41k back in May. 10smoh, new interior, new paint, new prop and spinner. Ifr but no panel mount gps.  Just to give you an idea, when I was looking the mooneyspace value said 69k and the vref was 71k. Really not too close to realistic selling price IMHO. Still, a great time to pick up the bird of your dreams. Good luck.

[Jsavage3]

 "Avionics sell your airplane.  No WAAS GPS, lower the price a LOT."  

 

I couldn't agree more!  So much so that my bird is down right now for a major avionics upgrade...750 w/ remote audio panel, Icarus GPSS and 60PSS...yep, that'll cost a chunk of change.  But, I'll enjoy the fruits of my labor for many years to come and when/if I were to sell my bird, well, she'll be ready.  At least that's my theory...

 

No intention of selling though and right now I'm like a kid on Christmas morning waiting to get my bird back so I can go play with all the goodies!  Actually, I'll be able to hold my bride's hand as we cruise the countryside rather than having my hands tied up "wrestling my bird" around...yep, that's how I sold her on the idea!  

 

Back on target now -- it's definitely a good time to buy!

[quik flite]

Call Jimmy and ask him ,he told me what my plane was worth almost to the dollar , I held out for what I hoped it was worth, but in the end, IF I would have listened to him I would be dollars ahead , he is an expert and very knowledgeable, he knows the market for sure...No B.S. at all.

[Immelman]

Thanks for the replies fellers!

 

I did a bunch of homework today, looking at comps, and built a spreadsheet model based on what I see for sale. I also re-subscribed to trade-a-plane and ran it through NAAA. What I found was that the NAAA & Jimmy Garrison calculators both came out close to 40K. My spreadsheet model puts me a little less, mid-to-high 30s, and AOPA Vref being the outlier with a stupid-low price that put me uncomfortably close to a Cherokee 160 and 150-horse C172: Give me a break, AOPA!

 

I feel a little bit better, but only a little. We'll see if I can work this out with my prospective partner. He's a good guy I've known for a number of years and there is some value in that. Hopefully we can come to agreement. In terms of airplane ownership a few thousand here or there on a purchase price really isn't that significant, but I do want to really know what a fair market value is and get that.

 

PS: Scott, I haven't let my airplane sit for long periods, always take it up but I don't fly the long trips I used to before flying for a living. However... I changed jobs, and one of the junior domiciles is 50 Mooney minutes from home! Even though I only had to be based there a couple weeks, commuting to work in a Mooney, to go fly an airplane, was a real hoot, and got me a bunch more nights in my own bed. It would be swell to keep the airplane for future commuting needs since the airline world is all seniority, in each airplane, and then seat in the airplane.. so as I move up to the jet, or look at upgrade to captain I start as the low man on the totem pole again.

[phecksel]

What does it cost to bring the avionics up from basic IFR + VFR GPS?  I'm not talking wizzbang geewiz level, but IFR WAAS entry level type stuff?

[gwcolwell]

Put a Garmin 430W in my M20F 5 years ago.  Total cost was approx. $11,000.00.  Did it for IFR training and future IFR flights.

[rbridges]

What does it cost to bring the avionics up from basic IFR + VFR GPS?  I'm not talking wizzbang geewiz level, but IFR WAAS entry level type stuff?

 

I'm just guessing, but WAAS GPS will be 10K+.  Depends if you go with a used 430W or a newer 650 or 750.  An autopilot will also set you back 12-15K.  A GPSS to link the autopilot and GPS will run a few thousand.  

[Hank]

Used 430Ws are selling for $7-8K, plus install. You can get a GTN-650 for nit much more. Putting in either will require a roof-mounted antenna; running new coaxwhen I dud the WAAS upgrade required removing the left side and both ceiling panels, so install cost is not insignificant. Plus tray, wiring, etc., for a scratch install.

[ArtVandelay]

Looking at other planes on controller/trade-a-plane, though, other similar planes are selling for a bit more than mine. 

Correction: advertised

[AmigOne]

If the budget is tight there are other ways than glass to achieve IFR+VFR. I have a Garmin GNC 300XL IFR GPS/Com (one now in Barnstormers for $3200, a portable Garmin 696 (I bought mine for $1000)where I display the XM weather info. In addition I have a portable 395, a Proxalert collision avoidance system and Foreflight Pro (georeferenced) in my iPad. No a/p, just a wing leveler. This summer I completed 6000 miles around the US without a hitch. Everybody wants glass, and glass is fantastic but if you can not afford it remember that you can train and still safely shoot an ILS to minimums without glass. That is the way I learned 40 years ago and still works. The 300 XL is too complicated (for me maybe not for you) to shoot a GPS approach and you will not have WAAS. But you can practice with it.

[rob]

I am seriously considering listing my 65C for sale. With an Aspen PFD, 430 WAAS, and STEC 30 + Alt along with a full Garmin stack and a panel mounted Aera I'm not looking forward to the bath I'm going to take when I sell it. It really is a buyers market, the question is though, when will it turn around?

[carusoam]

Things to consider...

Unemployment is going down. Stock market is going up, price of fuel is going down...

These are the makings of good markets for boats and planes.

Rents are increasing making house ownership the preferred method of living.

A few planes have traded hands here this year.

Mooney isn't building planes yet...

Why consider selling?

To get out of aviation?

To trade up for something different?

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I am seriously considering listing my 65C for sale. With an Aspen PFD, 430 WAAS, and STEC 30 + Alt along with a full Garmin stack and a panel mounted Aera I'm not looking forward to the bath I'm going to take when I sell it. It really is a buyers market, the question is though when will it turn around?

Planes aren't investments, fly the wings off and you'll get your moneys worth no matter how much it sells for...avionics lose their value the minute you install them...good news it will be much easier to sell

[Wildhorsesracing]

I have been watching this '62 C on Ebay because mine is very similar.

http://r.ebay.com/yPYJst

 

But when I use the Mooney calculator it comes out that our planes are worth $29k +

 

I have a hangar neighbor that is getting his twin apache painted, he has owned the plane since the early 80's and doesn't plan to ever sell it.  He told me that the cost of the paintjob was roughly $9k and that was with him stripping off the old paint.

 

So, I guess it stands to reason that there is no reason to sink too much $$$ in one of these birds unless you plan to keep her forever.

[Marauder]

I have been watching this '62 C on Ebay because mine is very similar.

http://r.ebay.com/yPYJst

But when I use the Mooney calculator it comes out that our planes are worth $29k +

I have a hangar neighbor that is getting his twin apache painted, he has owned the plane since the early 80's and doesn't plan to ever sell it. He told me that the cost of the paintjob was roughly $9k and that was with him stripping off the old paint.

So, I guess it stands to reason that there is no reason to sink too much $$$ in one of these birds unless you plan to keep her forever.

Your observations are spot on. I made the decision in 2012 to invest with the intent of keeping. I bought my plane in 1991 and when I looked at "upgrading" to a newer plane, the depressed price of my plane helped make the decision to stay with my trusty steed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Immelman]

Interesting stuff guys, interesting to see this thread resurrected. Hindsight is always fascinating... I thought when I quit my nice salaried job a couple years ago to chase the airline dream, I would be forced to sell (regional airline first officers do not take home much). Thus far, I have not... my airplane gets flown regularly, albeit not so many huge trips anymore, and I've been lucky that it has been mechanically reliable. Why sell? I continue to enjoy the heck out of it.

 

Now should a large bill come due tomorrow such as an overhaul or significant corrosion issue, I may have to liquidate... and I have reluctantly accepted that the market for our aircraft is nowhere near what it used to be. This actually gives me a perverse sense of peace of mind: "it is what it is". I'll hang onto my airplane as long as it is logical to do so, and who knows, if a 1st or 2nd tier airline calls me for a job in the next couple years my income will once again allow keeping the airplane and paying those large bills should one come due.

 

One thing I have decided not to get seduced by is throwing money at avionics that, as someone above pointed out, eventually become obsolete. I would gain very, very little operational utility with an IFR GPS in my airplane, for 10K+ for a 1990s era Garmin 430? Just to do LPV approaches? I don't think so! I spent a year at a part 121 airline flying aircraft that were /A equipped just like my airplane and we managed just fine. ATC is helpful with shortcuts, and for GA flying a GPS/ADS-B in sending data to my ipad provides a REALLY nice panel on the cheap, "bolted" to my kneebord.

 

If I still own my airplane in 2019, and I'm thinking there is a good chance of that, I believe I'll be able to comply with the ADS-B out mandate for a reasonable cost as lower end equipment is now starting to come on the market.

[Guitarmaster]

I'm with ya Immelman!  I have circa 1996 avionics.  MAC 1700 radios and king HSI.  I had one avionics shop try and talk me into the latest and greatest, but I found, just like the initial purchase, I had to really evaluate what I need the avionics to do.  Essentially, I need ILS and VHF comm capability.  I finally found a shop willing to repair my 40-year-old radios at a reasonable cost.  

By the time 2020 comes, I am hoping the part 23 re-write will be complete and Riley will be able to be classified as "experimental" so I can install a Dynon panel for a fraction of the cost!  

[Bob_Belville]

Well, I had an easy day today with my old M20E, new panel flying from Maine to NH to PA to NC, ATC changed my proposed route from KLNS-HOAGE-KMRN to SCAPE V377 HGR HRB V143 LYH V222 BZM while I was stil in my climb. Then they vectoring me all over the sky to avoid Dulles inbound and jumpers. And the entire leg from Lancaster PA to Morganton NC was IMC landing in a shower. With the GTN 750 to change the flight plan, GPSS on the Aspen handling the steering, the GDL 88 providing weather on the 750 and the Stormscope assuring me there was nothing in all those clouds it was no sweat. I did it the hard way back in the 70s/80s, no thanks. 

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N943RW

[Immelman]

Bob, that is awesome and I am glad your equipment made it easy. Were it me I'd tell them I was unable direct SCAPE and request an initial heading from them for a few miles to intercept whatever it is that SCAPE is on and then write down the next two steps - radial and freq, and DME for a course change if necessary. Stay 2 steps ahead and you're golden! I used to make a small grid on the TOLD card of the Beech I used to fly..

 

radial in - navaid freq - radial out

185 17.3 192

193 16.4 200

 

toss in DME if you need it for an intersection:

185 17.3 192 -> D30

200 16.4

 

With a few rows of that you could do an IFR flight spanning hundreds of miles, including most SIDs and STARs.

 

Do that enough times and there was no need to have an en route chart or complicated flight log out until something went wrong or ATC threw a change which was no big deal