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Hi all, I've used this forum for reference even before I became a Mooney owner 2 years ago. In June 2022 I purchased N111MR, a 1967 M20C from a fellow Mooniac and forum member, who sold me a plane that already had a lot of blood, sweat, and financial equity in it, with a dual Dynon Skyview HDX system, Hartzel Top Prop, and other great qualities, but the plane had original paint, an interior that left much to be desired, and I saw a great opportunity to make the plane 'mine.' After flying it for a summer, I decided I wanted to invest in paint and interior. I had no idea the magnitude of the project I had decided to undertake. Fast forward to June 2024 and last weekend the former owner and I picked up an unrecognizable airplane from Hawk Aircraft in Zephyrhills. N111MR (s/n 670130) is now N6767C. In the past 2 years this plane has undergone full strip, corrosion treatment and repaint in a custom livery I designed (@ Hawk), full gutting and installation of a custom interior @ GEMICO/Hawk), full strip and reseal of fuel tanks including new senders and pickups (@ WetWingologistsEast), prop balancing (@ Solano Aircraft Services in TOA), new flaps, and wing spar splice (@ Dugosh). I am incredibly happy with the results and I'm still not done. I plan to have a one-piece panel cut by Superior Aircraft and possibly add the AeroCruze 100 AP. I greatly missed flying this airplane for the 1 year and 8 months it was 'in treatment.' I logged 2h total in 2023, only flying the airplane from paint to reseal and back to paint. Since picking it up I have logged 14h and plan to fly this en lieu of flying on the airlines (within reason). As a career graphic and visual designer, and someone who used to draw cars and airplanes all over his schoolwork, it had always been a dream to design an airplane livery and have it become a reality. If any of you are race fans, you will immediately see what this livery is inspired by. I also added some modern touches to make this airplane even more unique.

I think the reality is that you don’t generally get to decide what you pay. You only get to decide weather or not you are willing to pay what it costs. There is no alternative, or competition. You have to store you plane at an airport, and if you don’t live in a fly in community, or aren’t willing to drive to a cheaper spot, you pay what they are asking.

In addition to what's been mentioned, the owner/operator is legally responsible for maintaining aircraft records, not mechanics or IAs. If you want to keep control of what goes in them, and just as important, what doesn't go in them, in order to maintain them properly, you have to maintain possession. Some maintainers put themselves first when making logbook entries and sometimes record things are solely CYA for them and detrimental (and unnecessary) to the aircraft record/history/value. You can always ask for a sticker or any sort of printed (or electronic) record from a maintainer, and ask for a revision if there's something unnecessary that you don't want included (like an "unairworthy" statement in an annual inspection record, or including the discrepancy list from an annual in the logbook). If you give them the logbooks, they can put anything they want in there, which is harder to deal with if it is inappropriate or unnecessary and not what you want.

The story I was told by Bob Kromer (test pilot for the 252) was that Marketing had already decided to call it the 252 (meaning miles per hour), and it was his job to make it go that fast. Only way he could do it was to go up to 28,000 feet. Not sure, but it may be the highest ceiling of any model they ever built.

Most carb'd Lycomings will give a cough if you ram the throttle for a go-around. As near as I can tell, it is the lag in the accelerator pump. Had a lot of them stop my heart for a beat, but never had one spit out the bit. As to paying again for installation. Welcome to aviation. While it seems perverse, having worked in auto parts I can tell you the auto shop may cover the labor to replace a defective part they installed, I can also tell you they make between 25 and 50% on the part they sold you. The price you see at say O'Reilly's is retail-retail which is what the auto shop charges you, trade prices are not shown. There are no such margins in aviation. Aircraft Spruce usually gives 10% to the trade for some but not all items. I recently paid for the installation and removal and are-installation of an alternator after only 100 hours of service. Hartzell/Plane Power sent me a replacement, which I promptly sold but all the labor was on me.

Exactly! I went as close as I could without risking a lawsuit for using the actual livery! I did buy a bunch of Gulf gear tho (custom Mooney 67 Gulf Mug, Gulf shirt, keychain, etc.)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I bought the Aerox Oxysaver Mustache Cannula Kit for the time being. I plan on flying with this, seeing how much I use O2, what my consumption is, and what I like/don’t like before doing anything else.

@Max Clark You've already received copious valuable input so I'm just adding this for an additional data point on the Precise Flight equipment. I've not used the Mountain High equipment. Bottom line up front, I have two X3 demand conservers, fly somewhere around 80-100 O2-required hours per year, and have plenty of O2 left in my 115cuFt built in O2 tank at annual. I target a minimum of 94% O2 sat and confine my high altitude flying to the mid-upper teens. I find this setup simple, effective and efficient. I was willing to pay the extra money for the "simple" part. I fly primarily at 15,000 to 17,000 for trips over ~250NM. That keeps me in center's airspace almost everywhere and I avoid all the radio changes for the approach control sectors beneath me. Less interruptions to the XM radio entertainment. I don't go higher to avoid the more serious physiological risks in the flight levels. They're manageable and it's safe to fly up there with a good mask and proper mitigations, I've just decided it's not for me. That, and I recently moved to Basic Med . I started with Precise Flight A5 flow meters and Oxymizer cannulas, then moved to the boom cannulas. I also have a mic mask for the A5. With the A5s I was needing to refill twice between annuals at about $120 per refill. I was able to buy a pair of used X3 demand conservers and used standard dual lumen cannulas for a bit before purchasing the dual lumen boom cannulas. I was going to have my mic mask converted to the dual lumen setup but haven't needed it as I don't plan to fly above 18,000 and the cannulas work for me to that altitude. Happy to discuss my experience if you like. Cheers, Junkman

Boost is definitely better than nothing to get you back down to a breathable altitude. Another portable tank would be best case. Not a bad idea to go up with an instructor that has a lot of time in high altitude operations in an a pressurized single.

I pointed out his error to him in the comments section on the youtube video.

My plane would fall apart if not for zip ties.

To add to what @EricJ said regarding revisions. The stickers are just pushed to a printer from a computer so, if there is anything you don't like on the first sticker, you can revise the language and hand it back to the mechanic and ask to have another printed. If the mechanic balks, just use the original.

60x60 box hangars I lease are selling for $2,000,000 here.

LOL, we'll see, I've also reached out to every Mooney Service Center hoping that they will want to stock up, increasing the QTY to make it feasable and affordable for both Mooney and us, I haven;t stopped the OPP efforts, just running in parallel for now. will let you know.

I've tried it. I had a discussion long ago with aeronautical engineer and handling qualities consultant Roger Hoh who pointed out that not all airplanes wind up tighter and tighter and faster and faster until making a smoking hole in the ground. Spiral divergence is caused by the directional stability being greater than than the lateral stability. But the longitudinal stability can be a factor also. Normally a Mooney phughoid lasts about 2-1/2 cycles. If you get the airspeed right (trimmed to about maneuvering speed) and the airplane is well rigged, I've let a spiral start power off and watched it stabilize in about a 45-degree bank and get almost to redline before the nose started up and then it got almost to stall before the nose came back down and then did this another time and a half with lower amplitude each time until it finally stabilized at trim speed in a 45 degree descending turn. This was long ago in my 1978 M20J. I haven't tried it in my 94 J.

I believe you are getting shafted also. I would make one attempt of sitting down with the owner and calmly presenting your concerns. Calmly and confidently tell him what you think is fair for both of you (maybe split the extra labor?). At this point I wouldn't go further than that or they'll hold your airplane hostage. Get it signed off and get it out of there and don't go back. (Also just a point of reference I keep my logbooks locked up and shops that work on my airplane get a .pdf of my logs, if they request them. I ask for stickers that I'll put in my logs. The shop never has possession of my logs.) Education always carries with it tuition. Your education here is never go back. Once it's done please share the name of the shop so someone else doesn't sign up for that course also.

There is a reason that plane has sat for a year: it needs MONEY! Will this be your first plane ownership experience? Do you want to buy and fly, or buy and spend a bunch of time and money, not to mention frustration trying to get to fly? This one sounds like you are looking for a 'deal' on price...don't do that! My $0.02 of advice: Buy a plane that has been and is being frequently flown.

Would that be the same Swift that can't explain why its unleaded UL94 (with ASTM certification) is causing valve seat recession in Lycoming engines at UND? - the same Swift which said at AirVenture 2022 that unleaded 100R would be in the market via STC by 2023? - the same Swift which promised transparency at the same time, yet it has been radio silence since? Swift Fuel: Drop in 100LL Replacement in 2023 - KITPLANES The problematic Swift UL94 has carried an ASTM certification since 2011 which shows that "certification" is no guarantee that the fuel will not damage your engine. The only news I see from Swift is Swift Fuels CEO Chris D’Acosta changing tune about an STC and dancing behind "claims that the lack of ASTM approval of the fuel means that it is not yet commercially viable because it likely will not be accepted by the aviation industry, insurance companies, distribution companies and fuel sellers without proper ASTM vetting." He also made the lame and incorrect statement "The FAA does not certify or approve fuel in the marketplace." ...sounds like a bit of desperation to me. Swift may intend to get 100R ASTM certified but I get the impression they are having more problems than they are admitting. Since Swift has missed every date that they previously projected to get 100R certified and to market without providing explanation, it appears that they have stopped projecting dates. I think that they are just trying to delay GAMI and are using "insurance" as a smokescreen. At the same time EAGLE talks more about Lyondell/Basell/VP Racing as the leading contender. Swift Fuels Raps Environmentalists' 'Ultimatum' On Unleaded Fuel - AVweb Drop-in unleaded replacement for 100LL expected to be approved in late 2025 — General Aviation News

Found this on Amazon, fits perfectly in the cargo section of my 1966 M20E, if you are looking for something. https://www.amazon.com/Organizer-Leakproof-Adjustable-Tie-Down-Removable/dp/B08DFLFTBQ/ref=asc_df_B08DFLFTBQ?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=79989562808701&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583589112002835&th=1

EDIT 6/21/2024. More than 150 guides emailed so far. Getting a lot of good feedback. I decided to add photos to the guide this time and I think it made a HUGE difference. EDIT 6/18/2024. The guide is ready to go. It turned out to be over 50 pages once I added photos and it totals 17,541 words. Owners can email me (address below) and I will send a free copy. Non-Mooney owner's cost will be $35. We will work out details through email. I am getting the 2024 Mooney Pre-201 Valuation Guide proofed at this time and hope to be able to send it out in the next week to 10 days. The guide is FREE for Mooney owners. It currently sits at 27 pages of Mooney history and value information as it pertains to the Mooney Models M20C / E / F / G. It will lead you through the process that I use when I talk to owners about putting a price on their aircraft. I know quite a few of you got the guide back in 2019 and I still get requests for it now (I got a lot of good feedback on the last one. Here is how Mooney owners get it: email me at jimmy@gmaxamericanaircraft.com and just put 'Value Guide' in the subject line. Either in the subject line or in the body, give me your tail number. If you are not a Mooney owner, you can also email and I can tell you a little more about the guide and tell you how to get one. I plan on getting the M20J and M20K guides out by the end of July and then an M20M and M20R guide out at some point in the late summer or early fall. Thanks everyone! Jimmy

That's exactly right. The M22 Mustang (pressurized) only had a 24,000 ft. service ceiling.

My old Cessna has a similar carb. It was cranky. I had it off about 4 times. It is working great now. The parts for the carbs are reasonably priced and available. Nobody seems interested in fixing them these days. They aren’t that complicated. By the way, if I could get $1000 to R&R a carb, I would quit my day job. It is a PITA, but still a couple of hours start to finish. Does that shop charge $500/hr?

It sounds like the accelerator pump isn’t working. You can probably use a mirror to check it out after you remove the cowling.

That's a good point. I do like the subtle differences between mine and the true Gulf livery. Those that know, know where the inspiration comes from.

Aircraft Spruce will typically give you between zero and 5% off of a part. And then you may mark it up 20% but that’s nothing like an auto shop’s margins. It’s really important to get the idle speed and mixture set up properly on these things. Most of the ones we see are far too rich, and the thing loads up all the way down final and then you firewall to go around it’s full of fuel. It has to clear out before it can make real power. If it’s leaned properly, you have nice smooth acceleration. So I would look there first.

We’ve air raced a few 225 horse bonanzas and a good J model is about the same speed. But with all the 285 hp bonanza, the Mooney bravo, Acclaim, and Ovation can take it. Remember the ovation can cruise at 185 kn and those 285 Bonanzas they are about 172 to 175.

Be prepared to walk A LOT, I mean really a lot. I went last year and averaged 8+ miles per day. Even being there all week, I didn't see it all so don't expect to it's much bigger than you realize, the scale can't really be described. If there's any way you can get a bike or a scooter to use there, do it.

No need. Just search on google with the string starting with site:mooneyspace.com and then add whatever you are looking for For instance you might search with site:mooneyspace.com m20k prepurchase and you would get site:mooneyspace.com m20k prepurchase - Google Search It is better than the search function on this site. You can find links to threads, pictures and videos. Sadly many (most?) images were lost when the site migrated to a new server a few years ago.

Love the Gulf Racing livery! I had a Gulf 917 poster as a kid and that scheme has always been a favorite!

LOL, I think they all would... I definitely would have a lot of wire lying on the floor of my cabin.

Scott seems like a nice guy. I don’t think it’s intentional but as a Bonanza guy, it becomes second nature to represent other makes as inferior. What he’s done here is take the the Vne of the vintage birds and early 201 and the clean stall speed of some other heavier Mooney. The numbers to calculate for my bird would be as follows: Vne = 175kias Vs1 = 58kias Max G available = 9.103 He uses: Vne = 175kias Vs1 = 63kias Max G available = 8 The number’s he uses are not representative of any Mooney with which I am familiar.

Same. Batteries are cheap, and a forced/scheduled change is almost foolproof. Likewise, I run the TKS first flight of every month. -dan

Thanks! Exactly what I was going for. Modern Retro.

Thanks! It's been great so far. I've flown it between TX and CA a few times, and back and forth to Florida. First summer I had it I took it to the states around my new home state of Texas. It's remarkable how much is within a 2h flight.

Oops! Just edited my response above, because 200 mph = 175 knots. Also, Bonanza start at 235hp for the older ones, and the newer ones are 285hp. I'd expect them to all cruise faster than any vintage Mooney, plus K, M and R models with lesser power. The 310hp models should all be faster, as should the turbocharged models, although there are many turbonormalized Bos out there. Comparing the speed of my 180hp Vintage Mooney against any Bonanza is unfair. But I'll go up against any of them on nautical miles per gallon!

I've stopped using Duracell for this reason. I've had more leaks with Duracell then other main brands. Also I always replace batteries at annual regardless of their condition...figured it I do this for smoke alarms, why would I do less for my safety equipment that I use all the time. I think that the recommendation for alkaline vs lithium has to do with the voltage sense of the O2D2. Lithium batteries maintain their voltage almost to the end of charge life, whereas the alkaline batteries reduce their voltage output throughout their performance. The O2D2 has a battery alert/monitor that I'm presuming is based on voltage sense which is likely calibrated to typical voltage drop curve of alkaline AA batteries. Surprisingly, my Bose A20 headset also says not to use lithium batteries...but the only thing on this end that I could find is that Bose mentions that a "fully charged lithium battery may overload headset."

When I first got a Mooney 231 I used to fly it up to FL240 a lot, later in the first Bravo I had many flights at FL250, with no oxygen backup and no pulse oximeter. Very foolish. Even though the service ceiling of a Mooney 252 is FL280, I would be very reluctant to take an unpressurized airplane that far into the flight levels. Useful consciousness time at the altitude is near zero when you have an oxygen failure. Having a backup O2 and a regular check on o2 saturation helps make it safer. Things can happen.

It sounds like the OP may not even need to do this. With the oxysaver cannulas, he may be able to go to having refills at annual each year or maybe once in between annual. To me that doesn't justify the cost of a refilling cascade and one more thing to keep up with. @Max Clark Fly a year with the oxysaver and see what your use is first before loading up on gear. edit: (for comparison, I can get a fill locally for $60; at annual they charge $80). POH says don't go below 100PSI. To give a little leeway, and to make sure I don't have a trip where I need O2 but don't have it, I start thinking about it by 500PSI and refill before 300PSI or if I have a big trip(s) coming up. This will keep you with a pilot only 3 hr oxygen flow at 18,000 ft. AFMS for oxygen system attached if you don't have it. Oxygen_AFMS.pdf

While I hate to add anything to the emotional attraction, the TKS on that 252 is pretty rare, and would cost a fortune if you could even get it these days. Probably an inadvertent system but, while FIKI is "better", inadvertent is way better than no ice protection.

Its 190b https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SBM20-190B.pdf

@PT20J @jetdriven In the March 2015 revision of the M20TN Illustrated Parts Catalog Mooney specifies Tygon for that hose (page 79-10-00). Tygon is stronger and doesn't collapse as easily and handles heat better. It also specs a 5/8" x 7" spring inside of the Tygon near the air/oil separator. "(SPRING INTENT IS TO PREVENT COLLAPSING OF TYGON TUBING)".

Done the camping, got soaked once or twice, land in Milwaukee at Timmerman field now, get hotel and rental car there away from the hustle, drive to air venture in one hour in the morning

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Exactly. Buy yourself a system to refill yourself and you will spend less and not. Be so concerned about consumption or failures of the system.

GripLockTies https://griplockties.com/griplockties-faq/

I don't know about the two magneto Lycomings, but the Continental TSIO-360 with two Bendix mags have the same rubber cushion inserts in the drive gears. So they have twice as many as a Dual Mag IO-360 Lyc. The real problem is if they drop the gear down in there.

Eric mentioned it, but the land lease terms are key. Definitely want to know who owns the land, and if it’s not you, how long do you have a lease and how is the renewal process going to work? Most public airports, you can build/own the hangar but the airport owns the land. You might get a 30 or 50 year lease… if you’re buying a 25 year old hangar, you need to know what happens at the end of the lease.

The up limit switch is in a fixed bracket and the adjustment is on the little paddle on the push pull tube, so I didn't have to worry about the adjustment.

Last Saturday morning above western North Dakota. It's amazing how green it gets here... for a few weeks.

If there were good news, we’d hear about it. The fact that Jonny is silent means that there is no good news to share. Do you really need the details?